Disney World appears to have a strict no gun policy. No law-abiding citizen, including an off-duty police officer, is allowed to carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, to protect their family from violent predators while at Disney World.
I searched Disney’s web site looking for clarification on this policy, but was unable to locate anything. On non-Disney websites, I have seen reports that off-duty police officers were asked to either lock up their weapon, or to leave the property. I did have one of their security guards confirm that even cops aren’t allowed to carry off-duty at Disney World.
I requested information from Disney World about police officers carrying firearms, but so far my request has been ignored.
Disney World is a huge, juicy target for terrorists and nut-jobs alike. When thousands of people are gathered in one spot, one crazed individual can kill, wound, and maim a lot of innocents by detonating a bomb, or by firing a gun randomly. Islamic terrorists have stated the intention to kill as many of our children as they can. Killing children at Disney World would shake Americans to the core. So, if Disney World is telling me I can’t discreetly carry the means to defend my family, they better have that place on lock down.
During a recent trip to Disney World, I made several observations about their security measures. First, I observed a lot of security guards near the entrances to the different parks. The guards were not armed, and did not appear to be any higher a caliber than what we have come to expect out of contract security companies: many were old, out of shape, or both. I observed very few guards beyond the gate areas.
Second, I observed very few undercover, or plain clothed, security or police officers. No doubt I would not see all of them, but I still spotted very few.
Lastly, at the gates to the parks, the guards check your bags. Depending on who was doing the checking, my bag was either not searched or only a cursory check was done. Every day I walked in, I could have toted several pounds of C-4 in the bag that was “checked.” At no point was I ever checked, nor was any stroller or wheelchair that came through the lines with me. Anyone could carry multiple handguns on themselves, and bombs or long guns in their baggage or strollers.
I can only assume that Disney World uses state-of-the-art electronic surveillance equipment, and they have deputies and/or armed security hidden behind the doors labeled “Cast Members Only.” However, based on my observations, anyone can carry firearms and bombs into the Magic Kingdom.
I suggest that anytime you are off-duty, you need to be armed. I also suggest that Disney World is no exception. I carried every day I was there, and at no point did they ever detect it.
Stay Safe!
note: If you have had any experiences with carrying off-duty at Disney World, please e-mail me. Also, if you represent Disney World and would like to clarify your policy, please e-mail me.
About Richard
Richard is the publisher of BlueSheepdog.com. In addition to writing here, he publishes GunsHolstersAndGear.com and is a regular contributor to places like Human Events, Police & Security News and The Firearm Blog.
Six-Flags has a similar policy.
As long as Disney, and others like them, have policies that prohibit off duty PO’s from carrying their firearms on their property, then I will choose to NOT patronize them with my hard earned on-duty paycheck. PERIOD!
AGREED, WITH NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. MY MONEY SPENDS ANYWHERE. IF DISNEY DOES’NT WANT IT, I’M SURE SOMEONE ELSE DOES. I’LL NEVER GO BACK. PERIOD.
I thought HR 218 took care of all of this foolishness! Law enforcement officers can carry their guns anywhere in the US , as long as they have their commission card and their badges on them. Dizzy world could be getting in to law suit hot water but we will have to wait and see. Peace, Don
Don,
Disney can refuse service to anyone since they are a private business. Their position seems to be, though I don’t agree with it, that you can disarm and enjoy their park, or they can decline to do business with you.
I personally believe that any law abiding citizen who has a state issued carry permit should be allowed to exercise their rights to self protection. I also believe that it is doubly true for off-duty cops.
Thanks for the comments!
Richard
D/S,
I suspect that the policy may be more widespread than I initially realized. It is too bad common sense has been replaced by the twisted logic of “If we don’t think about it, it can’t happen here.”
Richard
As a memebr of CPD that travels often to Florida I am troubled by this practice. Granted I am referring to the incident where an ODPO was shopping in Utah but imagine that or worse at Disney. I might give you civilians regardless of their concealed carry permit and training, but “Sworn” law enforcement absolutely not… This may be something that needs to referred to the National FOP, PBPA, Teamsters and any other bargaining unit for the police.
Stay safe guys and keep your family safe
Quite a few places out here in So Cal have the same policy.
Sea World
Knotts Berry Farm
Dodger Stadium
Staples Center
Disneyland
Our union (ALADS) has sent letters to the owners/managers of a few of these places.
When they have actually received a reply, it has more or less been a polite ‘piss off’.
There is not much we can do about it. They are on private property, and can dictate what/who they allow on their property.
A fellow officer who frequents Disney as much as myself tells a good story from one of his visits years back, before 9-11 even.
He was in the Country Bear Jamboree waiting for the show when one drunken and disorderly male started causing a scene. Within moments three large men in plain clothes, not in the usual Disney security attire or in the usual shape as described above, came inside out of no where and politely escorted the male outside without a scene never to be seen from again that trip.
Where they Disney Special Forces lurking about? I would hope so, because as stated, a definite target rich environment.
Stay safe!
@Richard: Thanks for recognizing and appreciating that law-abiding citizens, regardless of LEO status, should have their right to carry and right to self-defense recognized. While I believe Disney does have a right as a private company to ban firearms no matter who carries them, I think it’s the duty of those of us who care about the protection of ourselves and those around us to boycott companies with such deadly policies.
@Sean: It disgusts me to see you refer to “civilians” with such contempt, and to dismiss our permits and training and right to self-defense… while maintaining you have a right when off-duty to defend NOT the public, but YOUR family. Sean, putting on your uniform in the morning does not make you as special as you may think, and it certainly does not mean the lives of your family members are more valuable than the lives of mine. It really concerns me to hear those supposedly committed to protecting and serving ready to throw my rights on the chopping block as long as they can continue to receive special treatment.
I am a NY State Resident (not a cop), with both a NYS Full CCW and also a Florida NON-Resident W-CCW permit. Disney, as others have suggested, is a prime target for a tragic event. If you walk inside, with your family and think otherwise and get brainwashed to think that you are not possibly subject to a violent random act of some nut, you better wake up. You can not predict where, a violent act can occur. To be able to personally defend yourself, at all times can’t be outweighed just because your in “Dream World” for a day.
I would like to see how they will apply this to my many Federal Agent friends that are now considered to never be “off-duty” since 9/11.
If you have ever read a federal credential, it is pretty broad in stating that the person possessing the identification can carry weapons and effect arrests at anytime, anywhere on U.S. territory.
Wonder how that will work?
Foolish,
I’m not sure how it would hold up in court, but the places I mentioned above dont exclude Fed officers. NO ONE who is visiting the location gets in with a strap.
When I was working overtime at Universal Studios Hollywood during Halloween a few years ago, we had a FBI agent try to come into the park with her off duty weapon. She was told by security that she could not come in with it, and she made a scene. She was told by security (not us) to either leave, or face arrest for trespass (I SO did not want to be standing there right at that moment, the security supervisor was dead serious about hooking her up)
My Sgt and I smoothed things over by having her secure the weapon at our substation, and then walking her into the park.
The way that it has been explained to us out here in SoCal is that the locations are private property, and can exclude weapons if they so choose to do so.
Thing you all have to remember is, that while you are looking to carry your gun for the right reasons,even an off duty cop could carry it for the wrong reasons. We all know the guys who get drunk off duty with their gun on them and do stupid things. I also worked security at a mall for a while, we had unarmed guards and armed police. In the 60 years the mall was open the only shooting was an off duty cop who shot his wife and himself. IM sure Disney has a fear for their reputation and dosnt want to chance that kinda of situation (unlikly, but it happens enough). Second thing is that I can have a badge and police ID tomorrow that says just about anything I want. I know officers who have walked on to military bases (POST 9-11) with just a flash of a badge and no second look. IM sure the Disney Guards are in no place to figure out whos badges are real and whos arnt. So a blanket policy is the best way for Disney to handle it. I worked at a park that had its own armed police dept, but didnt search people at the gate. tehy kinda went the other way with it. Seems some place in the middle would be best.
I am a full time sworn police officer and I never carry my gun off duty. It is a major hindrance to me and to difficult to constantly maintain security of, especially during recreational activities like running, swimming or play football. I plan on removing my family immediately from any dangerous situation and letting the local police handle the matter then to get involved in any way. Undercover and off duty cops die all the time because they think they are on-duty when they are not.
Some advise to the 24/7 gun carrying off-duty cops – Better to make a good witness then a fatal statistic.
PG
PG –
I realize that nothing anyone can say will help you understand that you are depriving yourself of a tool that you might use to save your life or someone else.
So, I wish you the best of luck and hope that you never run into any violent criminals when off-duty. If you could just walk away from them as you suggest, then I wonder how the students at Virginia Tech were killed.
I am thankful that there are enough armed citizens and off-duty police officers out there to end tragedies like the one at Trolley Square and in Pearl, Mississippi.
If you have the time, maybe you can let me know about the off-duty cops who “die all the time” because they are carrying a firearm. The vast majority of police officers are killed in traffic accidents. Of those that are killed in felonious assaults, the vast majority are killed on duty. But then, maybe I have missed some studies on the topic. I honestly hope you will share the stats and studies you have with us.
Richard
I’m also a sworn officer in the l.a. area. I carry my everywhere except the gym. I’ve had 3 gang members try to rob me at an Arco gas station, I’ve walked in on a 211 at 7-11 and I’ve stopped a guy brutally beating a woman for not giving him her purse all while off duty. I suggest that if u have the ability to carry you should.
Well, I have been through the same experience in Six Flags in n.Texas.. I was in full unifom and they wont let me go in there with my gun on me.. they told me i could take off my duty belt and secure it in a locker then go in.. even off duty cops can NOT get their weapons inside.. u lock it up like when u go to the jail..sucks..
Whoa there…Six Flags in Texas told you couldn’t carry ON DUTY?
They are way out of line. Unlike other states, there is a flat exception to the Criminal Trespass statute for Peace Officers if entry was denied based on carrying a weapon. Very, very clearly by statute, Peace Officers, regardless of when they are on duty or off duty, cannot be disarmed in Texas. The only legal exceptions are going to be some federal properties, and even that get convoluted by some difficult case law.
Additionally, unlike other states, Texas law includes out of state Peace Officers and many sworn federal officers in their statutes for carrying weapons.
The legislative intent in texas was very, very clear; the legislators want cops in Texas to be armed. While I have heard of issues at some theme parks and concerts, that is manily because the officers were dumb enough to bring it up with security. My rule is not to mention to avoid the confrontation.
I for one do not understand the rampant paranoia the owners of these establishments have against off duty LEOs carrying. It seems to me if we have been vetted by our state/Federal government as being trustworthy enough to carry a weapon and enforce the laws they would be thrilled to have us in case something did go down. Same goes for a legally licensed permit holder, if you have it carry it IMHO.
Correct me if I am wrong but just about any venue that attracts large crowds is a potential target for terrorists or some EDP with a gun and an axe to grind. What exactly do the folks at Disney or Six Flags or any of these places think is going to happen when the guy listening to the voices in the streetlights/Allah shows up at their front gate, guns down the unarmed security folks standing there and then proceeds to merrily shoot his way through the park until the on duty officers arrive? Does the reality of 30 – 50 or more dead or dying “customers” who got shot due to an unrealistic corporate policy really stand up to the “it can’t happen here” mentality? Are they truly that stupid?
I will be honest; I used to think that way at times too. But a couple of reality checks like 9/11, Columbine, the mall shooting and VA Tech has made a convert of me. Now I carry everywhere I go, including church and other “no guns allowed” properties. Unless I am subject to being patted down or sent through a metal detector I don’t offer up the info that I am off duty and carrying. The few times I have been stopped I have had a quiet word with someone from management asking them what the plan for dealing with an active shooter in the establishment was and if they really, truly had a desire to ask me to leave. If they insisted, I found someplace else to spend my time and money, it is not worth the risk to me, my family or the rest of the public for a trained LEO to be standing there watching people die because of a unrealistic policy.
I am with you on theme parks. Since HR218 I have been carrying at Bush Gardens at Williamsburg, VA. No problem, just show my credentials and log myself in on their form. As of July 04, 2011 that policy has changed to…..”NO” carrying of firearms unless active Federal/State/Local cops…period.
They tried to tell me that has alway’s been policy. Strange that my name was on the log they produced two weeks earlier. I go there with my wife at least 2x a month.
Go figure!
Can the officer take a weapon to Disney if he is looking for a suspect to arrest?
Do private citizens have the right to deny LEO’s access to their property because the officer is armed?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m on officer’s side on this…
“Non-carrying off-duty cop // Feb 21, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I am a full time sworn police officer and I never carry my gun off duty. It is a major hindrance to me and to difficult to constantly maintain security of, especially during recreational activities like running, swimming or play football. I plan on removing my family immediately from any dangerous situation and letting the local police handle the matter then to get involved in any way. Undercover and off duty cops die all the time because they think they are on-duty when they are not.
Some advise to the 24/7 gun carrying off-duty cops – Better to make a good witness then a fatal statistic.
PG
All I can say to you is baaaa
Read the law and follow it. If it doesn’t say anything about businesses having the right to post “gun free zones” then you are NOT in legal hot water. Then its just between you and the business… and yes, they can refuse you service (as silly as that sounds) for carrying a gun — or an umbrella for that matter… but that doesn’t mean diddly in legal terms.
My philosophy….. I carry anywhere I damn well please — within the law, of course —
In other words, screw the little signs and stupid rules some businesses like to put up. Go in, have fun, and be safe.
“Thank you for contacting the Walt Disney World Resort.
It may interest you to know we have a strict policy regarding firearms.
Our policy is that no guns are permitted in our theme Parks or Resorts.
If a resort guest brings one on property, it must be locked up in the
safe deposit boxes at the front desk, not in a room safe. If guests
visiting our theme parks bring in firearms, it must either be left in
their vehicle, or checked in with security when entering the park. Only
on-duty law enforcement officers whose agency has jurisdiction at the
Walt Disney World Resort may carry any weapon.
If you have questions or need further assistance, feel free to contact
us.
Have a magical day!
Thank you!
Sincerely,
Sarah Irwin
WDW Online Communications
PLEASE NOTE: All information is subject to change without notice and
should be confirmed just prior to your visit.
“
Sounds like Texas has got their s%#t together and supports police officers, no matter where they’re from, which was the original intent of HR 218!!
Just returned from Florida with my grandkids. Did we spend any money at Disney? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Gatorland welcomed me carrying under HR 218. Just presented my ID card and badge. No problem!!
No, you have a Magical Day in your Fantacy World.
I saved over $500 by not patronizing your “Magical World”.
Thank you, from the depths of my wallet for your position on HR 218 and off-duty officers!!
I just got back from a week at Disney World and was pretty appalled at their poor security. I’ve been a cop for 12 years (minus 1 year military in Iraq), and carry off duty everywhere usually…I didn’t to FL because of the additional hassle flying down. I did notice the extremely poor searches at the gate. I wore a Camelback every day, and it was never checked at all. It could easily have been a suicide vest.
In Virginia we have King’s Dominion. After a bunch of gang bangers got into it a few years ago, they put in metal detectors and hand scanners, and security is much tighter. But they will not allow LEO to carry there either, even Virginia sworn officers! I had to lock it up in their office.
Surprisingly, the Smithsonian Museums in DC DO allow off-duty LEO to carry. You just have to check in with a security officer (and it allows you and your family to bypass the screening line for quicker entry).
For anyone who thinks carrying every day makes me a “cowboy”, in 12 years I have made 2 off-duty arrests (robbery and felony assault). I just couldn’t live with myself if I were unable to protect my family or a citizen because of a little inconvenience. I’m not a sheep. Be safe.
I just got home from Disney (three days two nights) and I was upset by the lack of security at the gates and hotels. I felt safe to a degree. I carried at the hotel and Downtown disney and the Board Walk but left it locked up in the Disney hotel room same. I carried my automatic S&W swat knife. My wife who is also a police officer left it up to me to carry inside the Kingdom or not. We were never searched ar our bags. I saw a lot of cameras but not security. Orlando is a bad area for crime. I guess we were just blessed to not have a problem while there. Disney and any other place that doesn’t allow police / sheriff officers carry is foolish in my opinion. I can see if they deny a weapons permit. The state of Georgia gives permits on regular pieces of paper with no way to check to see if they are valid. Just because someone has a permit doesn’t mean that is not revoked or suspended or expired. I have arrested many people with what looks to be a good permit only to have a computer check show it to be bad just like a driver license.
Stay safe
http://www.policeone.com/police-technology/robots/articles/1285796-Pipe-bomb-like-device-goes-off-at-Fla-Disney-parking-lot/
Pipe-bomb-like device goes off at Fla. Disney parking lot
READ THAT…DISNEY DOES HAVE PROBLEMS
Being a current Florida resident, and having previously worked in a detention center in Georgia (read county jail), I have never understood how an off-duty officer at Disney expects Orange County Sheriff’s Deputies (who by the way are always on Disney property and at all Disney parks – they even have a district that just covers Disney World) to recognize them as “law-abidding off-duty officers” in the event that they spot this officer with his gun drawn even if this was due to a “protecting the innocent or the family” issue. Case in point: Jane Doe the 18 year old ride operator at Cinderella’s Carousel hears a visitor scream “he’s got a gun”, so she calls 911 (yes Disney does tell their employees to call 911 in the event of a real emergency not just a 7-digit security number), but John Q Patrolofficer who is in the line for the carousel also hears this. Being the good officer that he is he reacts to the situation and witnesses a man trying to rob a female in the line claiming he has a gun. In an effort to “do the right thing” John Q pulls his concealed service weapon, points it at the man, and yells for him to get down. This all occurs at the same time that the Orange County deputies (who were just behind the scenes) arrive on the scene. Who do they see with the gun? Thats right the off-duty officer doing the right thing. Now John Q spots the officers and turns toward them to scream for help, except one of the Orange County deputies (who has drawn down also by now) doesn’t know John Q from Adam and in a completely innocent mistake takes John Q’s turn toward him as a threatening gesture. Guess who leaves the park in a body bag? Now I am sure there are those of you on this blog who will say “but Florida Resident things like that just don’t happen”. To you I would suggest you read the following story: (http://media.www.centralfloridafuture.com/media/storage/paper174/news/2005/09/26/News/Ucf-Officer.Shot.Dead.Before.Marshall.Game-997557.shtml) and (http://www.local6.com/news/5022397/detail.html) which deals with the shooting death of an undercover University of Central Florida Police Officer by an Orlando Police Officer before a football game. Stay safe out there.
A Florida Resident:
If I understand you correctly, you do not think police officers (and I assume any free citizen) should carry a firearm because responding on-duty officers may arrive and mistake them for the bad guy. If I misunderstand you, please correct me.
If I have gotten your argument correct, I’m afraid I disagree. Yes, mistakes happen, and the UCF officer that was killed is unfortunate. I work with some of his friends and have a better understanding of that case than most. I am also aware of other instances where officers have been killed by “friendly” fire in NYC and other places. They are unfortunate and tragic and I wish all agencies would provide better training to their officers in responding to incidents off-duty.
HOWEVER, what is even more tragic is the hundreds of people who are killed every year, including some off-duty officers, because they were unarmed.
In your example, let’s say it takes three minutes to get the first deputy on scene. How many people in a crowded area like Disney World can an armed nut kill before that first deputy gets on scene? 20, 30, 50, 100?
Sorry, but I am at greater risk to be killed by a homicidal killer if I am unarmed, than by a responding law enforcement officer who mis-identifies me when I have to shoot and stop the aforementioned homicidal killer.
For example, the Trolley Square shooting…homicidal maniac is pinned down by an armed off-duty officer until the on-duty guys get there and finish the job.
Disarmament does not equate to safety.
What you won’t here about at disney world is that besides the security officers, undercover security, orange county detectives, and uniformed deputys, is that Disney has around 25 armed plain clothes officers. or so says the tour guides doing the back stage tours of disney world.
Admin,
I am not saying that responding on-duty officers are stupid or would automatically kill a well meaning off-duty officer. I am simply saying that it could happen. That said I do believe that off-duty officers, and all law-abiding citizens as you put it, should be allowed to carry with proper creditialing in most situations. However, I do believe that due to the very nature of theme parks there has to be some restrictions. As one poster put it many states differ widely in their “permitting”, so would you really expect a 40 to 80-hour trained security officer to be able to tell the real permits from the real looking and know every applicable law from every state. Perhaps off-duty officers could be allowed to submit a request to carry in advance which would allow time for local law enforcement to verify employment, law enforcement status, and do an NCIC check. I would be opposed to most non-law enforcement officer visitors (regardless of concealed carry permit, etc.) being allowed to apply in advance. Why? Quite simply law enforcement is trained in how to fire in hostile territory, how to control gunfire in and around a crowd, etc. where as many non-law enforcement/military carriers might not have the training needed to minimize the risk of accidental victims from someone trying to help take out a “bad guy” with a gun. Ever look at some statistics concerning shots fired to shots striking target in some law enforcement shootouts? Now imagine John Doe from Georgia (where by the way to carry concealed you simply have to apply, pay the fee, and have a clean criminal history – notice the absence of training classes) who got his permit last week, is emotionally distraught as a victim, and begins to fire wildly while trying to do the right thing. I think it is also important on here to note the variety of training/experience of law enforcement officers depending on the area they serve. I would have no doubt that an off-duty officer from say Orlando or another similar sized department might be an assest in a “visitor with a gun” type situation in a theme park, but what about the officer from the small 1,000 person town who has never had to unholster his weapon except once a year for training? I’m not trying to be little small town police (I’m originally from a small town of 6,700 people in Georgia myself and have worked in small town law enforcement), but am simply making the point that on a slow day the Magic Kingdom would have 20 times (or more) as many visitors as the small 1,000 person town. In closing, I am not against off-duty law enforcement officers doing what they can to help, nor am I opposed to law abiding citizens having the right to bear arms. I simply believe in using good sense and judgement when it comes to who theme park operators would allow to carry concealed in their parks. Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Kris asked back in March if LEOs who were looking for a suspect would be allowed to carry on Disney property. I am a frequent visitor to Disney World, so I decided to pop that very question earlier this week to some Magic Kingdom security officer friends I have made in my many visits. The answer that I got is that Disney cooperates fully with law enforcement officers who are actively working while in their parks and on their property. As others on here have pointed out, including I believe the administrator to this blog, however, getting anyone from Disney to pin down any of the exact wording of their security policies is harder than finding the holy grail. I guess this is good in a way since even though I stop to talk to these guys everytime I see them in the park on a visit they really don’t know me from Adam’s housecat. Anyway just thought I’d post the answer I (a frequent Disney visitor) got to this question.
A Florida Resident –
Thanks for your participation on this site; I sincerely appreciate it.
I think our opinions differ on two very important points.
First, I believe that any U.S. citizen that is not specifically excluded from owning a firearm (convicted felons, mentally ill) has the right to possess and carry a firearm and to defend themselves and their families. I dislike the notion of concealed weapons permits as no right should be subject to this level of government intrusion.
The right to keep and bear arms is a strong a right as the rights to free speech and against unreasonable search and seizure.
The government cannot regulate newspapers (what is printed, where they publish, the news they cover, etc.) because the press is a right. Likewise, owning and carrying firearms is likewise a right and should not be subject to the intense regulation this right has suffered.
Second, I believe that law enforcement and private entities are unable to protect the individual and that people would be foolish to give up their rights and rely on the government for protection.
Having worked in law enforcement for more than 10 years, I know that as cops, we show up AFTER the crime has happened. The idea that I can protect a stalking victim, shop owner, or a crowd of people in an amusement park from a nut or coordinated group of nuts is silly at best. A person has to survive the violent encounter without law enforcement’s help, because it take a while for us to get there.
At no point should any citizen agree to give up their rights to make the government’s job easier.
Quote:
“Ever look at some statistics concerning shots fired to shots striking target in some law enforcement shootouts?”
Yep. The often misquoted stat that LEOs only hit about 20% of the time, comes from a study of law enforcement officers who were killed in a gunfight. Other studies of law enforcement shootings where the officers prevailed put the hit ratio between 60-80%.
So, I guess that no one should be allowed to shoot back because someone might miss and hit a bystander?
Think about your argument for a second. There is a gunman who is purposely killing people in a crowded area. If he is not shot and killed, he will continue to kill more people.
You are against citizens and off-duty LEOs carrying a firearm because one of these panicked citizens or poorly trained LEOs -might- hit an innocent. Yet, if no one fights back, we know with 100% certitude that the nut job will continue to kill innocent people.
Your argument makes no logical sense.
In fact I was not refering to the 20% shot rate where officers are “killed”. There is however a cast that comes to mind in Chattanooga TN in the early 90s where a Swat Team entered a convenient store to apprehend a hostage taker. After all was said and done the hostage taker was shot and killed. He was shot a total of 5 times even though a total of 25 shots were fired at him from a distance of less than 10 feet. The reason given by the state was that the officers had not received enough training in live fire situations. I understand this is not always the case, but was only making a statement. Statistics are what statistics are I am sure you are well aware.
That said I never made the argument that a gunman who was “purposefully killing people in a crowded area” should not be shot.
In my very first post I made the case for a woman screaming “he has a gun”, and never specifically said whether or not he did. It was with purpose that the “gunman” in my first post was never shown whether or not he actually was armed. Keep that in mind someone saying someone else has a gun and your “armed nut purposefully killing others” are two drastically different situations.
Second I agree 100% that law enforcement should be allowed to carry inside the Walt Disney World Resort. I do believe, however, that this carry should be requested in advance partially for the protection of the off-duty officer and for the protection of the unarmed security officer who is patrolling this property. As a matter of fact, to be honest, I think it is ridiculous in todays environment for security at a place like Disney World to be unarmed. That said I have never felt threatened at Disney. I simply feel that an armed officer gives off a better sense of being able to respond to any situation. I think you would agree with me that a would be robber at say the Emporium on Main Street might not take too much stock in an unarmed officer being able to stop him, and with very good reason at that.
I would also like to clarify my stance on owning and possessing a gun. I am not anti-gun, nor am I an “over-regulate everything” believer. As a matter of fact I am a republican and very conservative at that. Keep in mind that the 2nd Amendment was originally put into place to prevent the government from being able to impose a military state on the citizens. Essentially the right to bear arms originated from the right to forcibly fight a corrupt government. That said I agree 100% that the right to bear arms in today’s society has to necessarily include the right to defend yourself against your proposed “nut”. I would like for you, however, to clarify for me how, without a permit, CCW process, etc., one is to begin to keep the guns away from those who are “specifically excluded from owning a firearm (convicted felons, mentally ill)”? I will be the first to say that requiring a permit does not keep these types from obtaining guns. I am simply asking for you to clarify a statement you made.
I would also like to voice my agreement with you that sadly law enforcement, by its very reactionary nature, can not in many cases be there to protect the citizen, but rather to respond after the citizen has been attacked. That said, being a conservative, I still believe in the right of a private business owner to set policies and proceedures that govern his private business. All of us as consumers can then lead support or disagreement to these policies by either frequenting or shunning these businesses. That is how a capitalist society should work after all. I think you would agree that over regulation by the government only creates more problems than it solves. With that in mind let us hope that Barrack Obama does not win the election, and seek to impose his very socialist beliefs on this great country of ours.
In closing, I appreciate you allowing me to voice my opinion on this blog, and like you, I appreciated hearing your views on my opinions.
At your request, this is my clarification:
It is my belief that every U.S. citizen has the right to own, possess, and carry in an open or concealed manner a firearm.
No permitting or licensing is required, or even legal, for any other constitutional right, and likewise there should be no licensing or permitting associated with the purchase, possession, or carrying of firearms.
All of the laws we have on the books today do not prevent a convicted felon from obtaining a firearm, so clearly the licensing schemes don’t work. So why waste time and effort on continuing efforts that do not work?
Keep the laws making it illegal for a felon to be in possession of a firearm, but how about leaving the rest of society alone?
Admin-
Well said. Of course making it illegal for felons to be in possession of firearms only works if they are caught with the firearm which I’m sure you agree with.
Like I said before I was not disagreeing with your statement simply looking for clarification as, at the time, it seemed almost contradictory. Now that you have clarified it I see that the seemingly contradictory statement was only in the wording or perhaps even my reading.
The area I work has a very large theme park, our officers have a good working relationship with there park patrol/security staff. The off-duty carry has never come up to my knowledge, however like Disney they conduct bag searches and use medal detectors at the entrance gates. Police officers in uniform/plain clothes are often within the park, can be seen on patrol/responding to calls with park staff. During busy times, we staff a police office within the security building, with a full time police presence.
I have a FL CCW. I spend a lot of time at disney with my family, and I carry my Seecamp in deep concealment every time I go there. It is a safe place over all, but it’s leaving the property I am worried about! I have had my CCW since 1988 and never had a problem. Disney is safe, but Orlando is NOT. Every gangbanger from the South Bronx has moved to Kissimmee. It’s like gangland central there. If you come to Orlando carry everywhere. If you carry on Disney carry something small and easy to deep conceal.
I wanted to make a quick observation about the Disney experience. We went at Christmas, one of the heavier traveled times of the year, and I brought my pocket knife to the gate in plain view by mistake.
One thing I noticed were “spotters” near the entrane gates alerting the bag checking guards of my weapon. The guard asked the man in front of me did he have a knife, which he did he just moved it inside his pocket, and the man said no. The guard smirked at him and let him pass through. He asked me the same and I told him I did. I was escorted to the security office where the weapon was placed into storage. The man taking my information asked if I had any other weapons and I said no. Even though I did.
They cannot physically pat you down. No one ever saw my weapon, nor would they ever. I was constantly watching people and movement. That is 12 years for you.
Downtown Disney, MK, and Hollywood were overrun with people. The only time I saw a Disney Security guard is when people got hurt and reports were being filed.
I will never have my family say “if he had only had his gun”. You are silly not to have it when your family is in IMMEDIATE danger as you MOVE them away from it. I don’t understand the poster who said he never carries it. Odd.
D
Why in the heck do guns nuts want to take their guns everywhere?? If there is a problem requiring use of a firearm, we will call for the sheriff deputy to waddle on over. Its not your place to bring a gun into our parks unless we ask you to do so, as IT IS private property and if the Management really wanted to make a point they can really embarrass you to your department and even ARREST you by a uniformed sheriff deputy if you do not leave property when asked to. You endanger yourself, our guests, and cast members by ignoring our policy. Gun nuts, grow up. There is no immediate danger, there is no vast conspiracy, just get over it. Besides, we have things on property that even the military does not have. Oh, FYI we CAN pat you down with your permission, otherwise if we think you are lying, we will have the sheriff do it. Sorry if you do not like our “Gestapo” techniques, but they work and they work well.
You might want to get a copy of HR 218 and read it closely…………..
I was unaware that cops who are encouraged to carry off duty by their department and by the Federal Government enacting HR218… are somehow “Gun Nuts”
A gun is just a tool cops carry all the time for work. What makes a “local” on duty cop any more trustworthy than an off duty cop? This is just dumb.
It seems that the logic is to make people “feel” safe and play the odds that nothing will ever happen. They are banking on a few “trusted” cops to respond and handle any danger.
With this logic… I guess we can disarm all of society outside the theme park too. Clearly… no citizen needs a gun when you can call a cop. It might take him 5, 10, or 15 minutes to get to you…. all while the shooter is killing people… but the cop can string up the crime scene tape and give a lookout when he finally gets there.
I know a cop that traveled off duty from Virgina to New York. While on the subway… he ran into a guy he locked up in the past. The guy called him out, started talking trash, and made threats. The cop quickly got off the subway and was OK.
What if the guy attacked the off duty cop with a knife? Does the off duty cop need to call 9-1-1 or scream out for a cop and wait while being stabbed to death? All while he could have been armed and prevented serious injury.
Now replace the New York Subway with any theme park that bans guns.
DisneySecurityLead –
I’m not sure what you mean by “gun nuts,” but feel free to define what you mean by this pejorative term.
Even if you do work for Disney in security, I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics in violent confrontations, and the U.S. Constitution.
Feel free to post your “no gun” signs and boast of technology that “even the military does not have.” Neither one of these things will prevent an active shooter, maniac with an axe, or terrorist taking hostages. Only someone with a firearm can stop these incidents.
You can ask me to leave your property, but you cannot arrest me for exercising my inalienable right to keep and bear arms, as protected by the Second Amendment, H.R. 218, and Florida law.
Feel free to call my sergeant, lieutenant, captain, deputy chief, chief, internal affairs division, city manager, or mayor in a vain attempt to embarrass me. While I already know what they would tell you, I would gladly stand proudly in the court of public opinion and explain why I choose to have the means to protect my family, my fellow citizens, and myself from the cretins that prey on the weak and defenseless.
Your policies are an homage to a failed way of thinking. Criminals do not adhere to your policies, nor do you catch them as they enter your amusement park. I have spoke with dozens of police officers that have carried multiple weapons through your gates and were never given a second look by you or your fellows. This clearly indicates that your measures do not keep weapons out, and that lawfully armed citizens (with or without a badge) pose no threat to you or our fellow citizens.
–Richard
Hi Richard,
I apologize for the term “gun nuts”. I have worked in the Security department for over 12 years now here at Disney. I am not here to debate the 2nd amendment, that is a back forth that will go on forever. The bottom line is that the matter has been settled in Senate Bill 43 which exempts the resort from allowing anyone to bring firearms on property which goes hand in hand with our company policy that has been in effect long before the NRA went sticking its nose where it does not belong. As matter of fact, we just termed someone here last summer in our department that has been here for many years. Having a gun on you does not protect you or your family anymore than a wooden cross works with a vampire. I understand and respect your point of view. Let me also point out that being a public servant that its a mentality and a state of mind to have or not have a firearm on or about you and our security measures are used to simply reassure the public that we handle things well. We have everything we need without firearms. We had a guy with a legal conceal carry come into Epcot a shoot himself New Years eve. In all my years in the private sector, I will never (or have) brought or used a lethal weapon as part of my job. The whole “what if” philosophy is simply a scare tactic. Believe me when I say that the company knows what the threats are, and its more concerned about someone blowing themselves up than hand guns which is why we are not so through at times. On an unrelated rant from one of the older posts about President Obama, I can honestly say that he has zero intention of taking away anyone’s right to bear arms. There has only been one gun grab in the United States and that was during and after Hurricane Katrina under Republican orders, in a Republican State, county, and law enforcement force. I am not a liberal and I DO SUPPORT the right to carry, I just personally feel that Government intrusion needs to be kept to a minimum in dictating who does what and in relation to private property and what not. In my opinion and even more Disney’s opinion, (like the sign says) “Private Property subject to control”. Thank You for allowing me to take time to express my feeling on this subject.
Here is a mutual article from last summer that is related to the topic: http://www.gunguys.com/?p=3096
I have a concealed firearms license in Florida and I sell jewelry. I always carry jewelry around and large amounts of cash. I always carry my gun on me. I don’t want to get robbed I work hard for a living selling jewelry to my customers.
I went to a mall the other day to deliver jewelry to a store who I do business with and a security guard noticed my gun which I had concealed under my shirt because I took out my wallet to pay for a cup of coffee in the food court. The guard approached me and told me that I had to leave the gun in my car or leave the mall. I showed him my CCF license and he said he did not care that I had a license to carry that I was on private property and I had to leave. I then explained my business to him and he told me that it did not matter.
I then noticed two Brinks Security guards who had guns holstered out in the open walking through the mall with money bags. I asked the guard how come they can carry theirs and I can’t carry mine?
The guard responded that they are with Brinks and they have a license to carry a weapon and they are protecting the assets of their company. I laughed and said that I also have a license to carry my weapon and I also was protecting the assets of my company. So what is the difference?
The security guard then called his supervisor who I knew and the supervisor told him that it was okay for me to carry the gun in the mall.
Is this double standards or what?
Some of these companies go to far violating your Second Amendment rights.
I believe that not only off duty police officers but also “civilians” should be able to carry firearms as long as they have licenses. (I quote civilian because civilian police officers are not in the military they are also civilians. When I was an a Air Force Security Police Officer there where times I assisted the “Civilian Police” with k-9 searches).
Don’t forget that concealed carry is just that! You should not wear articles od clothing that even unintentionally expose your concealed weapon. This is a direct violation of the CCWlaws.
Florida Resident –
Thanks for stopping by and joining the conversation. I agree with you 100%.
Stay safe,
Richard
I have never known Six Flags to ban off duty cops from carrying.
They do, however, not permit any non-law enforcement person from carrying on property (including people with CCW licence).
The only thing that they do when a off-duty cop wants to carry their service firearm in the park is document it and their personal information. So that if something were to occur they’d know of the weapons that were in the park so they’d be able to hand it off to the local police to handle.
To the people that posted before I’d love to know what Six Flags parks wouldn’t allow a off duty cop to carry.
I was in Disney World in 2007 and they made me check my pocket knife. I was off duty and wasn’t familiar with Disney’s carry policy. I thought about badging them but remembered I was armed with a keltek 9mm and decided to just check the knife. The knife was clipped on my pocket and the gun was in an inside the waist holster.I didn’t want to push my luck. They taught me a lesson though. Now I just put the knife in my pocket instead of clipping it.
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. They can kick me out if they want but my family will be safe no matter what.
I have been to florida several times and I am sure most of you already know british police do not routinely carry firearms, although I was a crewmember of an fast armed response vehicle for 9 years and am trained in all the weaponry US cops as well as being a rifle officer. My opinion is that the ideal secenario is proper archway metal detectors at park entrances to stop firearms entering. As for explosives, sorry guys, you are not going to stop that happening with a 9mm pistol, so you have to hope for the best and trust the Government to stop that before it happens. As for agressive poeple causing trouble, either be a good witness or take them aside and protect your fsmily using reasonable physical force. Sorry, but I dont want to see every second guy with a side arm on when I pay a fortune to have a good time. Outside the park, I respect your customs and laws and am happy to live with that. Hope this creates debate.
Thanks for stopping by, Scottish Cop. You do have a different perspective, and while I disagree, I still value it.
I don’t trust the government to prevent any crime, any more than I trust them with my tax money, healthcare, or freedoms. The government has proven itself to be ineffective at stopping, much less preventing, crime. The only way to protect my family from violent crime is to defend them myself.
Metal detectors do not prevent armed people from entering the park. The US Capitol, one of the most heavily guarded building in the world, has state of the art metal detectors, yet, a single armed gunman shot his way through the metal detectors and into the very core of the capitol offices. He was eventually stopped by an armed police officer…not by a metal detector or any gun control legislation.
Thanks again for stopping by, and feel free to respond.
Richard
As a former Walt Disney world Security officer, I just wont to clarify something. I worked for disney for several years not long ago. Let me tell you, one thing is they are not a contracted company. Disney owns there own security force! I have worked for several companies in security during the past 8 years. Disney is the best security company. They are just like the police and dont put up with any crap.they have a plan for everything, and they have there own K-9 unit. but no matter what you always have a few bad apples, and I’m sorry for the poor bag checks, but thats because some people are just lazy, and they are everywhare not just @ disney. Either way disney has other ways of detection. I enjoyed working there! and just may go back some day. oh and about federal agents, The FBI main office in Miami is aware of the no gun policy and they are contacted whenever an agent wont lock up his gun or take it back to his vehicle. They deal with those agents accordingly and have advised us that all FBI agents are aware not to carry on Disney property unless they are wrking on an investigation in the parks!
DisneySecurityLead – Your attitude towards the LEOs who have posted here (i.e “gun nuts”) is why you are working security instead of working in law enforcement. As Col. Grossman pointed out, there are sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. You are definitely not a sheepdog.
I have been around guns all of my life. I learned to shoot when I was 10 years old and have owned a firearm since I was 12. I own several firearms now as an adult and I go everywhere armed. Everywhere. However I am not what you derisively term a “gun nut”. What I am, is a responsible, law abiding adult living in America and a law enforcement officer. Both of those positions entitle me to carry a firearm, one by choice and the other by the responsibility I am entrusted with by the community that looks to me to protect them. They expect me to protect them from threats ranging from armed robbers to active shooters to terrorists. I am doing a job a great many other people, yourself included either can not do or will not do themselves. Being a responsible gun owner or an LEO does not make me the kind of foaming at the mouth, machine gun waving, raving lunatic you conjure up when you hear derogatory terms such as “gun nut”.
As far as having a gun on you protecting yourself or your family I respectfully disagree with you. I have first hand experience in this particular area, and personally think in today’s society you are foolish to be allowed the option of carrying a gun for your protection and elect not exercising that option. The media is chock full of stories where an armed citizen was able to prevent becoming a victim of a crime, or where they protected someone else from a criminal who was attempting to victimize them. Those are success stories in my book for responsible gun ownership. Those people saved lives because they were in a position to take decisive action against a threat to someone’s life. The failure stories are the ones where the illegally armed criminals rob, rape or murder someone who could do noting to protect themselves from being victimized because they did not think carrying a gun was an effective means of protection.
As far as “no immediate danger” goes I’ll make a deal with you. When bad guys start wearing signs that say something like “On Thursday the 23rd at 2:10 PM I am going to go berserk in Disney World/Wal-Mart/the football stadium and start shooting people” I will stop feeling the need to carry my gun everywhere I go. When we can predict with 100% accuracy when and where a violent crime or terrorist event will take place I will happily conform to the anti-gun paranoia Disney and other places have. Because in my experience “Immediate Danger” is a close as the nearest criminal intent on victimizing someone or the EDP with a gun listening to the voices in the Cheerios telling him today is the day to kill everyone on the bus he is riding.
I personally do not understand the line of reasoning over prohibiting a qualified, trained off duty LEO from carrying in a venue that is a prime target for terrorism and crime. We can be trusted in our home jurisdictions to carry a gun, to use common sense, to enforce the law, to exercise good judgment under stress and to use deadly force when the situation calls for it, but we can’t be trusted with a gun inside your parks? Yet if I were an on duty Orlando cop running through the gate to stop an active shooter you would welcome me with open arms? If that is the case I respectfully decline to bring my family into a venue where not only am I not trusted to be the same professional cop I was outside your park, but where I have to rely on unarmed, unqualified security to protect me. I can’t trust you to hold my safety and the safety of my loved ones to the same standard I do as a “gun nut” off duty LEO.
Make no mistake here – you are barring legally licensed CCW holders, and off duty LEOs who have been vetted by extensive background checks from carrying a firearm in a place where they have a vested interest in their safety, and where the criminals who go around armed are carrying with impunity. I know for a fact if these thugs are carrying a gun in violation of all of the state and federal laws which make it illegal for them to possess a weapon, they are not paying the slightest bit of attention to your silly “Gun Free Zone” signs or “No Guns Allowed” policy.
I will concede your point about Disney property being private property. Yes you do have the right to bar licensed gun carriers from your parks. You have the right to bar off duty LEOs from carrying into Disney property (H.R. 218 does NOT supersede the right of private entities from barring firearms). But in return we have the right to not visit your parks and spend our money there.
And as to the comments made by other posters about CCW holders or cops going bad or committing crimes, yes occasionally that does happen. Every profession has its own problem people, law enforcement and private security included. But the irrational or illegal actions of a few should not be used as a benchmark for how the rest of that segment of society behaves. If that is in fact the case and is the standard by which Disney is looking at all of the off duty LEOS and responsible CCW holders, perhaps you need to remember how many Disney employees have been arrested in the last few years for things like child pornography, soliciting underage sex, drugs and other crimes. Are those few bad apples typical of the Disney barrel, or would you like us to be a bit more understanding of the fact a few bad associates does not mean every Disney employee is a potential scumbag?
I was supposed to go to disney in November. After doing some reading I think I’ll spend my money elsewhere. After reading some of the rants by “disney” employee’s I’m feeling my better about canceling.
FYI in reference to your republicans taking the guns during Katrina rant.
The Governor at the time kathleen blanco was a democrat as was the mayor ray nagen. But hey don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
I am a Law enforcement officer in Orlando and I used to work security prior to working with my current agency. I agree with you guys, but you are forgetting 1 thing. IT IS PRIVATE PROPERTY!
Hi Tank,
Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right about Disney being private property. In fact, I stated above: “Disney can refuse service to anyone since they are a private business. Their position seems to be, though I don’t agree with it, that you can disarm and enjoy their park, or they can decline to do business with you.”
Stay safe!
Richard
Tank,
My issue is not with Disney being private property. My issue is with the lack of trust I and other responsible gun owners are being shown. Like I stated in my previous post, if I were an on duty Orlando city police officer or Orange and Osceola county deputy or a FHP trooper coming into the park on a call, the doors would be wide open for me. If I were ANY kind of on duty LEO they would not have the first problem with me coming through those doors with a gun on my hip, yet the moment that uniform comes off, and the badge goes back into my wallet, I am suddenly untrustworthy? Based on what facts? How has who I am or how responsible I am changed by virtue of the clothes I am currently wearing?
Or let’s lose the “off duty” LEO angle and go completely by a responsible gun owner, legally carrying a concealed weapon. What exactly have I or anyone else who is a responsible, law abiding gun owner ever done to make Disney feel we are not the same trustworthy, law abiding people we were outside their park? That is the issue I take offense with. I am treated with suspicion and regarded as a threat because I walk up to the gate or to the park guards and quietly inform them that I am either off duty or a legally licensed concealed pistol holder, and had the courtesy to tell them I was coming in armed. So I am the bad guy now, yet who knows how many other people who may be less than honest or who are outright criminals/terrorists are walking into the park with God knows what in their bags and pockets? Do any of them have guns? Knives? Needles full of heroin or meth? Crack? A container of some sort of acid or volatile chemical? Or even an explosive of some sort? Is anyone checking the people coming in and out of the park for these kinds of threats? If not, then why are we being lied to about how “safe” the park is when in reality it is a major terrorist target, that is not being adequately screened and where we are forced to rely on unarmed guards, a lot of whom are older or retired folks, and who are not in the best shape of their lives to intervene and save lives in a situation that most likely will involve one or more people who are armed with some sort of weapon or destructive device and who has no qualms whatsoever about hurting me or anyone else? So, thanks to Disney’s narrow minded view of who can and can’t be trusted, and the state of denial they continue to operate in, my family and I get to be a sad statistic in the event something “unthinkable” does happen there if we choose to sacrifice our only means of protection simply to appease some corporate policy that claims I am safer inside their park without my gun than I am outside their park with it.
I could sit here all day long and give you “what if’ scenarios about the kinds of mayhem that can be rained down on a place like Disney by folks like the 9/11 terrorists, a pissed off ex husband of one of the employees bent on a murder-suicide incident, or a mentally ill person with a bottle of gasoline and a lighter. Something as simple as a truck bomb in the parking lot or a suicide bomber wearing a backpack full of explosives queued up with the other people waiting to get into the park would devastate Disney or any other public entertainment venue. Are most of these situations unlikely? Yes they are, in the same manner that I once thought the events of 9/11 were unlikely. However experience has taught all of us that “things like that can’t happen here” thinking is a very flawed way of looking at the world, and I choose not to put myself or my family at risk by patronizing places that see my exercise of my right to protect myself as some sort of sign I am somehow more dangerous than the people I am justifiably concerned may harm my family or someone else. And since I have the choice to not spend my money at places that treat me with that kind of suspicion, I do so. My family and I still have lots of other places we can visit to have fun times and some of these places are less critical of whether or not I am carrying a gun, if I even inform them of that fact to begin with.
Richard, as always thanks for allowing us to come here and respectfully debate these issues. Woof woof!
Respectful and thoughtful debate is always welcome!
Richard and Collagecop WA,
First let me thank you both for allowing me to join in on your conversation.
I will tell you from experience, that Disney has had its share of incidents. Even in the short (5 years) I worked there. I know of a mentally ill man killing himself in the Boardwalk. I know of a jealous ex-boyfriend shooting at his ex-girlfriend at the entrance to EPCOT. I remember an OFF DUTY cop from southern Florida losing a 22 caliber gun from the holster and an A/D occurred, hitting someone in the foot in EPCOT. Just so he could get a better view of Illuminations. The story that always killed me was, a housekeeper found a loaded gun in a guest’s safe in their room. A security manager had the Sheriffs Office (S.O.) called and ensured the S.O. secured it. My question was never, “why does someone have a gun secured in the safe”. It was what is the housekeeper doing looking in the safe. The housekeeper was commended, not remanded.
Every time I enter the parks, I feel violated, due to me having to leave my weapon in the truck. I work the county that Disney World is in, but when off duty, I cannot carry within those 46 miles of property, called Disney World. Disney spent a lot of money lobbying the County and Sheriffs office to make the new patrol area. This has made more deputies visible, but again, Disney does not want to have their presence known to make a “Guest” fell uncomfortable.
I truly believe that Disney does not care. They, just like every other Corporate America Company, want to set guidelines to allow them to place liability on someone other than themselves, in case of a lawsuit. When negotiations were being conducted with the Sheriffs office to make the new patrol sector (sector 6), Disney was not worried about the response times, the amount of coverage that will be allotted to them. They wanted the Sheriff to ensure that every deputy assigned to sector 6, will have a new patrol car, or at least no older than 2 years. That shows me the guidelines were set to put the liability factor on- “Well the Orange County Sheriffs Office patrols WDW. Ask them why this occurred”.
From a legal aspect, again it is private property. They tell you that if you do not like it, do not visit Disney World. With that being said, we can not win that battle.
all I know is that DisneyWorld is way more interested than any of us here to keep it’s image clean. And a blanket no guns policy is the best thing for them to do that. It means that anyone with a gun on the property that ever commits a crime had violated that “cardinal law” and wipes away their liabity on it.
Why you would feel your security is threatened at Disney is beyond me – proabaly the safest place on the planet is inside that park. How many millions of $$$$$ does Disney risk from a single tourist getting shot? Chrurch Street Station, you can carry yr CCW there, but I think we’d all agree Tomorrowland is safer, eh?
I have to say, although I respect your discussion here, I am a little dismayed to see the 2nd amendment being used as some sort of bullying tool, a battering ram, so to speak. Just because you have a right to have a gun doesnt mean you have a right to have it on my property if I dont want it there, plain and simple. You cannot have a gun in my house. Those are my rules. You cannot tell me you have a right to bring a gun into my house, or on my property. And in doing this, I am NOT taking away any rights you have. I am not taking away your 2nd amendment rights. I guess thats what is upseting to me. The fact that ppl here are suggesting that by not wanting a gun on my property, I am somehow taking your right away. Which is telling me you feel you have a right to do what you feel on my property, without my consent. And that would be something I would resent, as I bet you would as well-me telling you what I can do on YOUR property LoLz.
So ok, I dont own Disney – but you get my point? How can someones decision about guns on their own property be an infringement on your rights when you dont have to be there. If you are really that scared, dont go. But to accuse them (Disney)of infringing on your Civil Liberties just because you dont like their rules? That’s a little disrespectful to them, their property
First off – their property, their rules. If you don’t like it, don’t go. If you care, tell them why. LEOs should point out that lunatics bent on killing people seek out places like this, VA Tech being a prime example. You don’t hear of shootings at gun stores, do you?
So we have three camps as I see it:
The “cop vs civilian” mentality, like Sean at the top. I guess there was a failure in civics education there – last time I looked, cops were civilians too, no matter how tacticool you dress. I can throw stats at you all day long about how CHP holders are just as vetted as police, have the lowest documented felony commission rate of any segment of the population (where, interestingly, LEOs as a group are not tracked), and how most police don’t seem to do so well at the action shooting sports (I understand, most have more important things to learn/do). Some would go so far as to say the bill of rights does not apply to non-citizens, and you’re off into very, very odious terrain.
The “don’t carry, ever” people, who, whether LEOs themselves or not, because “someone could get hurt” or some similar argument. As stated by others, when there is some lunatic shooting, it’s anyone’s luck as to who will get hit and who won’t. If you and your family can run faster than everyone else, I’d say you have a point, but otherwise, you’re denying yourself the _option_ <— yes, option of self-defense.
Then we have the carry everywhere people, who I think have a point. None I know advocate _everyone_ carry. As a non-LEO, I certainly understand that even in an active shooter scenario where I get the drop on the bad guy the two most likely outcomes are a) get sued by some of the survivors and b) get shot by the police, and my estate gets sued by the survivors. Nobody will care once it’s over, and most will be thankless. If you care that much about carrying, don’t go. Count me in this camp.
Did I miss anyone?
Was anyone’s mind changed?
I would like to say that I’ve been to disney plenty of times and I have seen or scouted very few undercover officers and I truly think it’s because lack of training. I would also like to say that yes it is a big target for terrorist I know first hand because I worked for the government/ Anti-Terrorism and I laugh when I see all these ads for Homeland security experts talking trash like they know something we started Homeland security after 911. Anyway Disney does not even allow off duty officers to carry thats ridiculous these officers would know what to do in a crisis situation and I know would respond if any crime was being committed for the safety of their family and others.. They need to revise this there are a lot of sick individuals out there. I seen some old out of shape Guards out there that think its all fantasy land not checking or not observing what is going on meanwhile our kids are at risk of criminals hurting them they need real life training once u past those gates yes its fantasy but what happens when u dont know who is going through those gates and what their intentions are.
Only on duty law enforcement officers are permitted to carry a weapon while visiting any Disney park or resort. Some of the Feds get a little testy but they always comply, usually after a brief explanation or, when they call the local office and speak with the commanding officer.
Trust me, we have it under control. Disney security and the local law enforcement are on site and we got it. Feel safe, enjoy the park and check your weapon at the local security office.
Disney Security.
What your telling me that on duty officers can carry and off duty can’t once again thats ridiculous.As u say you have it under control thats good to hear thats what Bush thought and thousands of people thought they were safe and look what happened to the towers. Don’t tell me you guys have it under control because you don’t.thats what happens when the american people get to comfortable and let their guard down. Sounds something out of a Disney fairy tale.Law enforcement officers in Florida need to wake up and really get better training you make me laugh you got it under control what a joke.I was at the twin towers and that was no joke when you feel ashes from dead bodies falling on you thats a shame when people think its all ok keep dreaming in your magic kingdom..
I would like to thank you Richard for letting me express my felings I could talk for ever but it would’nt make a difference I agree 100% with Tank thank you Tank for stating a lot of things that were on my mind but you covered a lot thanks again.I would like to also apologize to those good officers here in florida its just that the ones I have encountered and talked to or have shared a conversation with I wouldn’t trust my dog with them plain old dumb and no understanding of what real law enforcement work is.Or safety really is. Thanks again.
I’m a retired FBI agent and currently live in central Florida and occasionally attend Disney parks. First, let me say I worked counter intel and counter terrorism cases out of New York, Washington and internationally for many years and so have some knowledge of the field. I’ve walked around most of their parks (especially Downtown Disney) and considered, if I were a terrorist, when and how I would hit the place. From what I’ve seen, I don’t care how many plans Disney (or any of the other theme parks in Orlando) have for handling “incidents” that occur in their parks, they are wide open to attack. Any “Disney” response to a terrorist incident won’t go much beyond calling 911 and helping mop up the gore after the sworn first responders pick up the bodies and start the real investigation.
For starters, there would be virtually no way to stop a suicide bomber with C4 or whatever hidden on his person. Automatic weapons could be easily strapped to a leg and gotten past their cursory inspections (re-assemble in the mens’ room) I’ve never seen a metal detector in the place because they would be hitting on everything a tourist carries (cameras, water bottles etc) and explosive detectors are useless because the parks fire off huge amount of fireworks every night, (Disney is the world’s largest consumer of fireworks) contaminating the entire environment with explosive residue every day. I could go on and on about the holes I’ve spotted in their security, but suffice to say, it is solely for show and would pose no impediment to a determined terrorist, especially a suicidal terrorist. Their philosophy is obviously to provide a veneer of security to intimidate the “timid terrorist” into going for softer targets (hard to imagine) and provide enough physical barriers (steel posts, cleverly hidden boulders in the landscaping etc) to keep the gas trucks from driving in and detonating–reduce the 2,000 casualty incident to a 200 casualty incident in other words–and forget stopping aircraft, period. As for Disney “special forces,” if such groups exist as such, all they would be doing after an incident occurs is wondering what happened after the fact. They aren’t going to stop anyone beyond rowdy drunks from doing anything. When you think about what a huge, juicy mass casualty target they are combined with their high name recognition (they know about “Disneyland” in Somalia, for cripes sake,) I’m almost afraid to go into the place on significant dates (Halloween, New Years, (9/11–yeah I was there too…etc.)
As for their gun policy, it’s a “timid lawyer” (I’m a lawyer too–sorry) policy and the sole intention is to limit Disney liability if a shooting does take place on their property. The opposite possibility, getting sued because you didn’t allow cops to carry guns and so the perp wasn’t stopped as soon as he could have been and so killed more people, seems far less likely than Disney being held culpable because the law allowed them to keep guns out, but they chose not to. That and you can’t underestimate the fear Disney has of guests from anti-gun states and from overseas being totally freaked out if they knew of, or worse, saw, a “civilian” carrying a gun at Disney. They fear the bad press. Honestly, some Europeans I’ve known are absolutely terrified of the idea of people having guns–a lot of Americans too. You’d think the things are capable of just jumping up and shooting people on their own. Oh well, enough from me. “See ya real soon!”
Steven – Excellent points that reflect my observations and thoughts as well.
A FBI agent turned lawyer…what’s the world coming to? Of course, I married an attorney, so I guess I can’t talk!
–Richard
I am very puzzled about the housekeeper who found the gun in a guest’s safe and reported it. I would really like more information on that situation. From my understanding, and I may need to research my conclusions, you can have a weapon in your hotel room in Florida. Restricting that ability would be similar to a landlord telling a tenent that they can’t have a firearm in an apartment.
I have just returned from Disney this week. This is my 8 th trip to the Disney porperty since 1980 when I entered into law enforcement. I took my gun with me. After 8 trips to the Magic Kingdom I never got caught with my gun. That is the main reason you call it concealed weapon. You do not let anyone see the weapon, find the weapon or detect the weapon. If you connot conceal the weapon you should not be allowed to carry a weapon. For the subjects that feel you must of display a weapon maybe you should leave yours home. The rest of us that know how to carry a firearm will never have a problem. Grow up and learn what concealed carry means…
Leaving for Disney World today (01/13/2010) I am a cop in Michigan. Called Disney and told them that I am a off duty cop and that I would feel naked not being able to carry my handgun while I visited them at nearly $700 a day. They said no weapons allowed, even for off duty police officers. Couldn’t believe it. I have heard all of the crazy opinions and thoughts as to why they would prohibit off duty cops from carrying…I just don’t get it. I carry a .45 with 40 rounds on duty, a Rem 870 and a Rock River Arms .223 every day when I work…Oh yeah, and a x26 Taser…Haven’t done anything illegal with them yet…
Guys, Disney is a great place. It is a lot of fun to go there. I respect their rights as property owners to dictate what happens in their parks. Having said that, just do like I do. IGNORE it. I’ve been a cop almost 20 years, I don’t give a crap what Disney’s policy is. I have been to Disney 4 times in the past 10 years. I packed every time and will continue to pack until I’m caught. I really believe they don’t care if you carry or not they just can’t say that. If they were really concerned about firearms in the park their security would be a little tighter. It is far easier to get forgiveness than permission. Don’t ask Don’t tell. Worst case scenario is that you are discovered and asked to lock it up. Just play dumb. You are not in violation of any law so why worry about it?
I’m a fed. I carry in Disney. I carry everywhere no exceptions. My agency doesn’t scold me like the FBI supposedly does to their agents (by the way, I doubt that they scold their agents). Private property or not, I can carry anywhere. I have jurisdiction anywhere in the US. I have more juridiction than the locals.
To the fed above, you dont have ANY more jurisdiction than a local actually. Where are you a “fed” that you have more jurisdiction?
I only ask because I would also like to clarify a few things. The first is to the person who talked about FBI agents from the Miami office being aware and scolding their agents. This is VERY off base. The agents who work in Orlando work out of their own field office located here in Orlando. They dont answer to the Miami office. They answer to the SAC out of the Tampa office. From there, they answer to Washington, not anyone in Miami.
I also know that no credentialed agent with any Federal Agency will ever be criticised for carrying as people have said before, we are never off duty. We are, by department policy, told to carry on us at all times our agency issued sidearm and federal credentials. Although this is the case, if you are at a Theme Park for anything other than an official capacity, you better be on vacation. If you dont work out of the Orlando office of your federal agency, you dont have any jurisdiction and you might need to double check your departmental policies and also those of Orange County and the state of FL.
The second clarification is this. We have all been talking about carrying concealed to the parks. If you are doing it correctly, why would a security officer ever notice? If you are being noticed, you are not concealing effectively and you need more training. We have been trained to be unobtrustive and go unnoticed, so that the “bad guys” dont see us coming. Keep in mind with that, that Disney hires many retired LEO’s, especially retired federal agents. They pay them a better salary than most, to do the same thing they did before. Remain unseen to be effective.
Also, one more thing to keep in mind. You didnt get caught coming in…or maybe you did. You were also fingerprinted coming into the park. Disney’s “real policy” which is never going to be written down, is just like Kramer said. They are not going to bother you or pat you down because youve given them NO REASON to. As long as you can maintain a professional and courteous demeanor and you are not stupid enough to drop your weapon, they are not going to ask and you are not going to tell.
Disney security is in effect just like any police force. They operate a set of patrol units, k-9′s, detectives and investigators, etc. They show you what they want you to see, a bright purple and yellow uniform. It takes your eyes away from the real security. If you really want to test it, do something stupid and see what happens.
Please remember to be smart and remember that Disney is first and foremost a FAMILY park. This is why Disney has these policies in place. We are tasked with protecting those who cannot protect themselves. Sometimes, we are allowed to let someone else do the protecting. This doesnt mean dont carry, it means let them do their job and you do yours.
Sorry for the long post. I just needed to get those clarifications out as I am never a fan of seeing people speak unprofessionaly or incorrectly about things that they may have no real clue about.
I’m a non-LEO (retired Army, with CCW). I’ve been to Disney and other such parks a few times, and never attempted to carry. I honored the park management’s right to dictate, (yes—that seems to be the right word) the terms and conditions of my family’s use of the park. I implicitly entrusted them with the responsibility of providing for the safety of all of us. I would have preferred keeping my weapon, but it was a compromise made in order to obtain the desired good of the use of the park.
What bothers me is that I do not know of any park which explicitly spells out either their assumption of this responsibility for personal safety, in light of their gun ban, or gives the public any clear idea of how they provide for public safety. I suppose they can’t say anything that may be interpreted as a guarantee of safety, for legal reasons. I think they could do more to describe to their patrons, in general terms, the sort of security measures which they have put in place, some of which have been discussed in this venue.
A prominent posting, perhaps just below the “NO GUNS ALLOWED” sign that says, e.g. :
You will see many uniformed, unarmed, security guards who are there to help you in any way they can, and will assist in keeping order in the park.
You will NOT see many other uniformed security personnel, who are a “rapid response team”, trained and equipped to handle any sort of disturbance not handled by the uniformed guards.
You will see, but NOT recognize, many other security agents who will appear to be park patrons like yourself. These security personnel are as well equipped and trained as the rapid response team, but do not wear uniforms, and cannot be recognized as security personnel until they identify themselves. They can take IMMEDIATE action if necessary.
That would be enough to comfort me (though a poor substitute for my sidearm), and I hope enough to discourage anyone who would be entering the park with evil intent.
Well, idiots and anti gun laws folks have tried that in Texas, by telling business owners to forbid, by signs placed in front of their stores, anybody to carry their legal weapon in a store. That was very quickly changed when pro gun owners, like the NRA and other local gun people, advised to take any business owners to a civil court if any assault(s) occurred at these anti gun stores.
If business owners, (Disney land),refuse to have people carry guns in their store, then they must garanty full protection against criminals…Bush was against criminals, not so sure with Oboma Hussein Barack.
To those advocating civilian CCW permits:
I understand that citizens, never trained as police officers, have a valid complaint to defend themselves. At one point in time, that was me. I felt that since I served in the military and could shoot the wings off a fly at 25 yards, I was “qualified.” Now, having been a state trooper, I understand much differently. Carrying a handgun requires knowledge of various laws and response tactics to certain situations. I do not feel citizens have had that level of training.
Simply acquiring a CCW permit does not demonstrate that the person has been trained in deadly force scenarios. For that reason, it is a liability issue. Any off duty police officer or HR–218 permit holder understands that their necks are on the line if they make mistakes. If you miss a shot, brandish a weapon, kill in a non-deadly force scenario (very intense situations do not always warrant deadly force), you could end up in jail and/or be sued in civil court. It is a great responsibility.
I was trained by some of the best in the business and still use extreme caution. Why? Because I have a very clear understanding of my liability exposure. That is why I have extra liability insurance. Citizens who want to carry (for self defense purposes) may not fully understand self defense laws (no verified formal training) or their exposure to liability. They may also lack knowledge about the various laws in different states (Castle doctrines, approved ammunition, private property exclusions, government property exclusions, etc.).
Most recently, I inquired from the states attorney about the use of deadly force if attacked by a group of unarmed people (this is happening more often with juveniles in my area). I also fielded that same question to about four other attorneys involved in criminal law. Surprisingly, each answer was a little different. Those are seasoned lawyers! If they had different answers, how can an armed citizen (with no formal training) understand the laws any better. What would you do if four unarmed teenagers ran towards you while yelling profanity and threatening to harm you? Would you shoot because of their numbers or try to escape? What if you had no escape route? Now imagine if that scenario took place in Maryland? How about New York? Georgia? Each state is different.
In my state, you can be charged and/or sued for aiming a weapon at an assailant if not justified (its up to the grand jury to decide). An untrained armed victim can easily become an alleged assailant if the handgun is pointed but deadly force not warranted. The laws are just that tricky. Police officers (active duty, off duty, retired) have had countless hours of judgment training, range training, and classroom instruction that civilians will never have. Even with all of that training, some still make mistakes. With that in mind, it is hard for me to justify arming every citizen who demands it. Just for comparison (not the best), think how easy it is to acquire drivers’ licenses in each state. Now consider how many collisions, speeders, and drunks violate the law each day. Imagine giving those same people CCW permits.
If I was responding to a deadly force incident, as a retiree (and I have before), and find myself backing up active duty police officers, I know what to do, how to identify myself, and what positions to take. On one occasion, I walked out my front door (unexpectedly in a very nice neighborhood) and ended up covering a SWAT sniper. We were all trained in a similar way. An armed civilian trying to intervene may unknowingly find themselves in the line of fire.
I had to correct my post. “Collisions” don’t violate the law, but you get the idea (smile).
“Now consider how many collisions, speeders, and drunks violate the law each day.”
Be safe!
I read a previous post about a housekeeper finding a handgun in a safe. I thought safes were there to keep things … SAFE!!? Is housekeeping suppose to clean the inside of safes? I thought when I programmed new numbers, to open and close the safe, in my room, I would be the only one with access to my belongings. This is a concern that I will be bringing up the next time I am in FL.
Also, it seems that Disney and the NRA are messing it up for everyone. Why would anyone want to carry a handgun just to leave it in their car. Is it a comfort thing knowing its nearby? If I was a thief, and needed to quickly acquire a handgun, I would make it a point to break into a few cars over at Disney. On the other hand, I have been traveling to Disney for many years. I always notify staff prior to my arrival of my intent to bring my handgun. They tell me everything I need to know to comply with their policies. I have never tried to sneak into a hotel or onto THEIR park property with a handgun. I comply and have fun. I do have to say that I am not impressed at all with their security. I was almost assaulted at the front entrance of the Animal Kingdom by some foreigner who pushed and shoved his way in line to take a picture with a cast member. About four uniformed (very old and out of shape) security guards watched from a distance. After the incident, I was told to report what happened to customer service (if security saw it why did I have to report it). The line for customer service was ridiculous so I just blew off the whole thing. I really don’t feel safe in Disney, but I feel better knowing that every other person is not armed to the teeth (I agree with Troop19). Its just not a good environment for handguns. People these days just don’t think that clearly and make poor decisions.
In reference to what Troop19 wrote, checkout this news link. It was going to happen sooner or later so I am watching this case closely (it may even set a precedent). This guy shot a man because he was out numbered. He is now on trial for a gauntlet of charges. His unarmed attacker is now being referred to as the “victim.” This is a prime example of an untrained armed civilian being entrapped by laws that defeat the idea of self defense.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10
Troop19 has raised a serious question concerning the highly variable views of what constitutes “justifiable” use of deadly force, or the threat to use such force.
I agree that the trained police officer is undoubtedly more knowledgeable in such matters than is the average CCW holder. After all, an LEO is far more likely to be involved in such confrontations, both on and off-duty, and his training must cover the subject in depth.
It is a most telling point that Troop19 found so much diversity of legal opinions by experienced attorneys concerning the hypothetical case he posed, that of four unarmed people charging a lone person while screaming threats of physical violence. His reaction to this diversity — “If they had different answers, how can an armed citizen (with no formal training) understand the laws any better[?]”
I think the only possible answer in light of this diversity of expert opinion, is that even the well-trained police officer with an abundance of instruction, may fare little better than the comparatively ignorant armed Citizen. The fact of the matter is that every case involving the use, or threat, of deadly force is unique. Every use of deadly force, by LEO or “member of the Public”, will be subject to investigation of the unique circumstances involved and may result in a trial, if those doing the investigation find some question about the justification (or if it is a politically inspired maneuver).
Bob has supplied a link to the Gerald Ung shooting incident, which closely parallels that hypothetical case posed by Troop19. Despite being outnumbered 4 to 1, and being directly attacked by a college lacrosse player, Ung was arrested for defending himself against these unarmed aggressors with a legal gun. At last report, he will have to stand trial. We may all use the link Bob has provided, view the video of the shooting, and decide for ourselves if the shooting was justified — and if the legal prosecution is justified.
I wonder if Mr. Ung regrets his actions. Do you think he may wish that he had attempted to defend himself with nothing but his bare fists, regardless of the consequences — even his possible permanent crippling or death? Or do you think he can console himself with the thought “Better to be judged in court by 12, than carried out the church door by 6”?
For my part, I think I would have done much the same as Mr. Ung, and most likely would be ( as I once heard it euphemistically expressed ) “a participant in the criminal justice system”. I had one report that the purported ‘victim’ of the shooting is a member of a politically powerful family. I wonder how much that has to do with the prosecution of Mr. Ung. Even if a police officer had been the shooter, I suspect there would be a prosecution.
In the final analysis, we can never be sure that our actions in self defense will be approved by those who exercise authority over us, or even that the jurors who judge us will do so fairly. We can only act in accordance with our own moral convictions, and let the Law serve Justice, or let the Law be shamed.
As far as the concerns that Troop19 has expressed that the untrained, unsophisticated CCW holder endangers himself in both criminal law and civil law for illegal use of a gun, that is the responsibility of that individual CCW holder, every bit as much as it is the responsibility of the individual LEO. In point of fact, the relatively un-trained CCW holder does not need as extensive a training in the subject as an LEO requires —-
Jeffrey Snyder says in FIGHTING BACK: Crime, Self-Defense, and the Right to Carry a Handgun :
“Permit holders need concern themselves with only one thing: protecting themselves from a sudden, violent assault that threatens life or grievous bodily injury. Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation, great book-learning, or a stint at the police academy to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, ‘You’re coming with me,’ her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error.”
“Police, by contrast, do not carry arms solely for the purpose of defending themselves, but also for the purpose of enforcing the law. They deliberately inject themselves into potentially dangerous and violent situations, responding to calls for assistance, investigating crimes, intervening in domestic violence, and making arrests.”
The police have much wider duties and responsibilities than civilian concealed carry weapon (CCW) permit holders do. As a result, opposing CCW laws because police receive greater weapons training or requiring civilians to receive the same training as police officers is unwarranted. (Snyder’s article also points-out that police mistakenly kill roughly 300 innocent victims per year versus around 30 per year by civilians.)
A couple of points… Disney Security is pretty slick. And, Because they (For the most part) go unseen, They do what most departments are not allowed to do. They PROFILE.
Their response time is also lighting fast. I was bitten by a bug and had a reaction, I flagged down a cast member, and Security and paramedics were on the scene in SECONDS. I was amazed.
Now, I am a BIG supporter of CCW and Open carry. Hell, I’m a webmaster for MichiganMilitia.com. But, One issue people seem to forget is Disney is PRIVATE PROPERTY. While we want our own rights respected, We can’t piss all over property owner’s rights whether that owner is a restaurant owner or a multinational corp. We chose what businesses we support and THAT should be the force to effect policy decision.
That is exactly why I will NEVER support a Disney business, or any other business that subscribes to the mentality of not allowing LEO’s to carry. I will encourage the over 250,000 FOP members across the US to follow my lead.
I do not think people are “forgetting” that it is private property. This is obvious and they have the right to refuse entry. This was stated several times and we all agree. And yes… if you do not like it, you do not have to go there.
The issue is their decision to prohibit cops from being armed on their property based on the single fact that the cop is.. off duty.
So they trust or make an exception for on duty cops but not one who is off duty. Both are trained to react to threats but somehow… an off duty cop is a liability. Flawed thinking.
HR 218 was set up to allow, and encourage, cops to carry off duty everywhere permitted. In the past… off duty cops packing a gun could and were arrested while out of state by… fellow cops. Some states, unlike Virginia, did not have wording to allow all cops to carry. This cannot happen anymore with HR218.
The idea is that the people, who may not be able to defend themselves, have more protection out there by trusted and trained cops from all over the US. The same cops who were once disarmed when they left the state… are now armed and providing a free service.
And ya… some cops want to play witness and run while others take on the danger if necessary. A cop with no gun cannot save a life. This is sad….
We should all know…. a cop is NEVER off duty.
Hello everyone.
The weapon that the housekeeper found had been left in the safe after the Guest had checked out of the resort.
All the best!
The 2nd amendment states “the right of the people to keep and bear arms” it does not state, nor does the constitution, that anyone or any business can deny a law abiding person that right. PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS cannot interfere with a persons right to protect or defend themselves. One of the surest ways to conquer a people is to disarm them. Disney and other business have started the process.
I posted as Troop19 in earlier but had to create a new user-name. First, I want to clarify my stance on concealed carry. I actually support CCW by law abiding citizens. What I am concerned about are the laws that have been designed to allow every violent offender to sue after a victim thwarts their attempts to commit crimes. I just don’t want to see good people sued by the very people who wanted to victimize them. Until the laws are changed to accommodate CCW (maybe a “stand your ground” statute) criminals will become very rich in court.
I would also like to see a nationwide standard for background checks and firearms qualifications. They will not put you behind the wheel of a car until you demonstrate that you can drive. Likewise, they should not allow you to carry unless you can prove to them that you can shoot. Once again, with nationwide standardized tests.
Those changes would make it easier for law abiding citizens to push for changes that would allow for nationwide concealed. How can a state not honor a permit if the standards are the same for every other state. And, why would a bully or violent offender attack knowing that the little old lady in a wheel chair may part his skull with a 180 grain Hydroshock hollow-point? So, my point in the previous post was to adapt the laws to support concealed carry.
Not sure if you watch the news, but in sharp contrast to what Bob wrote, in post 73, an Ethiopian man was beat to death by a group of people in Washington, DC. If he took the same actions as Mr. Ung, he may still be alive. That is my point. Same scenario of unarmed attackers, but one man with CCW lives the unarmed man dies. I can’t help but wonder if Mr. Ung was unarmed if he would also be dead.
The laws need to be changed to accommodate concealed carry and the actions of permit holders to protect their lives. My personal opinion is that deadly force should be supported in federal and state laws when the victim is grossly outnumbered. The numbers of the assailants alone–in my opinion–are the equivalent to deadly weapons. Not even the best MMA fighters can defend against five or more attackers. The ongoing events surrounding the recent death of the Ethiopian man prove that numbers can be deadly–so why can’t a victim shoot after issuing a warning?
The irony of the matter is that Mr. Ung is still facing charges but the attackers that beat the Ethopian man to death have been cleared due to “lack of evidence.” Keep in mind that there were a lot of witnesses, but the medical examiner is having trouble proving that the beating death was caused by … guess what…a beating! I’m siding with Mr. Ung on this one and I hope his case sets a valuable precedent for victims rights.
Welcome back Troop,
A few thoughts. First, here in Florida, we already have a ‘stand your ground’ law. As long as you are lawfully in a place, you have no duty to retreat if attacked. I firmly believe that avoidance is the best course of action to prevent an attack, but once attacked, retreat may, or may not, be the best course. Florida law allows you to respond to protect yourself.
I dislike national standards. The whole reason the US of A is comprised of 50 states, is so the people of each individual state can decide what laws work best for them. I certainly don’t like the idea of California or New York style guns laws being enacted in my state. Pesky 10th Amendment.
Also, the car analogy fails from the get-go. Driving is considered a privlidge, not a right. The right to keep and bear arms is clearly a right, and is explicitly protected in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution. So, no “qualifications” or “standards” should apply. Replace your arguments with the rights included in the First Amendment. Would you want “qualifications” for someone to exercise free speech? “Standards” to exercise religious worship?
Lastly, ‘disparity of force’ is a well recognized concept in jurisprudence. When a single person is attacked by multiple people, in general, a disparity of force exists allowing the victim to increase the amount of force that is considered reasonable to defend himself. Just because a police officer arrests the victim, or the prosecutor files charges, doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. It is too bad that very few academies and departments actually train their officers what the laws are regarding self defense.
-Richard
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your well thought out responses. I want to respond but I’m on my way out the door so forgive my typos.
First, I like Florida’s “stand your ground” law. What I would like to see are more states with that same law. In my home state, you have to prove that you exhausted all means of escape (or at least tried). Can you imagine being attacked, surviving, and then trying to explain to a judge or jury why you did not run in this direction or the other?
The reason I mentioned a federal law is because waiting on every state to adopt “stand your ground laws” will take forever. I would go so far as to say that some places are heading in the opposite direction (ex. Chicago). Even the police were adversely affected by varying state laws. That is why I was pleased when HR-218 passed as a federal law.
I respect your opinion on the sovereignty of states, but in regards to CCW, they will never see eye to eye. That is why a federal CCW law will make it much easier for people to protect themselves (just my opinion).
In addition, the reasoning behind HR-218 was that states like California and New York could no longer impose ridiculous restrictions. It circumvents their ability to prohibit CCW with state laws. When I presented my viewpoint, I was thinking along the lines of an HR-218 equivalent for non-law enforcement qualified people. Believe me, that is probably to only way it will happen.
In regards to the 10th amendment, that will be debated and interpreted many different ways for years to come. The key is what authority was granted to the federal government and not prohibited to the states. With that in mind, an argument could be made that if HR–218 was “imposed” on the states, why can’t a similar law be passed for qualified non-law enforcement people? It’s simply a change in strategy with the same desired result–qualified law abiding citizens carry firearms safely in every state. I would like my wife and mother to have CCW permits, but I am the only one in the family who can CCW due to the restrictive laws. Why shouldn’t they have the same right to protect themselves in every state?
As far as the analogy of a driver, I wanted to point out ability not so much right. Even if the constitution grants a blind man the right to bear arms, would you agree with that scenario? Is he safe to himself and others? What if he endangers other citizens by imposing on their “unalienable Rights, that among these are Life…?” What about a violent convicted criminal? Do violent citizen offenders still maintain their right to bear arms? The Constitution has been amended many times, so–as awkward as it sounds–it is not written in stone. It has been changed (carefully and not easily) to suit a changing nation.
On that same point, we do have freedom of speech, but there are common sense restrictions. No one can speak a threat against the President or any person for that matter. Moreover, no one can yell fire in a crowded hall without being charged with disorderly conduct. Even profanity can result in charges. I’m not saying that I agree with every law, but there are clearly limitations.
You pointed out a valid problem concerning disparity of force and self-defense. In my opinion, there is no good teaching on this matter. The standards seem to vary between the courts, law enforcement departments, media, and other citizens. There should be improved teachings based on improved laws. For now, the question is; what can be taught? Everything is far too subjective. Arguably, the laws are vague, confusing, and restrictive (mainly on victims). That leads into my point about the federalized self–defense standards and CCW laws. Sometimes a federal law is necessary to protect citizens from unfair state laws.
(The following example is meant only to point out problems with conflicting state laws…not rights).
Some people have skin cancer. For that reason, they get medical waivers from their doctors for their window tint. Those tint waivers are filed at their state DMVs. Some states honor their medical tint waivers; others do not. What should they do as they pass through states and receive tickets for something that is legal in their home state? Is it fair? You see; state laws sometimes conflict to the point that citizens pay the price. That is when a federal law can be used to correct that type of a problem. A federal law exempting medical tint waivers from state laws will protect that skin cancer sufferer from being unfairly penalized.
Anyway, I have to run. Your comments are welcome. I am not on here often but check back from time to time.
Stay safe out there!
How will a hand gun protect you from a terrorist bomb?
No, how will the security staff there protect you from a terrorist bomb?
No cop on duty.. or off… can protect you.
The bomb is a strawman argument that cannot be fought here.
However…. a suicide bomber raising his hands, displaying a bomb, and is about to press the trigger with his thumb can be shot in the head with a handgun. This could possibly stop the explosion. Right? Or should you just call a cop.
Ever Disney is not scared of bombs. If they were… they would not allow packages and walk each person from a airport style x-ray device. Right?
From Lorraine:
“How will a hand gun protect you from a terrorist bomb?”
Answer:
Only indirectly.
Explanation:
Using a handgun on a terrorist bomb is senseless. If you fire at the bomb, its only likely effect would be to detonate the bomb.
If the handgun is fired at the terrorist, the likely effect is to render that terrorist incapable of making/planting/detonating a bomb.
Update on Gerald Ung — found NOT GUILTY after a few hours of deliberation by the jury.
I am currently a law enforcement officer and carry from the minute I leave the house until I take my clothes off to get ready to go to sleep. I have a Disney vacation scheduled and most definately will carry. However, with that being said, I primarily use my off duty gun to defend myself and my family. I’m not going to leave my family unattended to try and take down an armed robber or some EDP. My gun will stay concealed until I see a need to pull the trigger. Thats my 2 cents.
First, I am glad that Gerald Ung was found not guilty. That is the disparity of force I mentioned earlier (I posted as TroopQ23). Apparently, Philly juries can see what the police and law makers cannot. Its not fair to think that one man can fight off a mob.
@Mpdjaypo: please be careful in FL…especially Disney World. They use metal detectors at the entrances, so they WILL locate the firearm. At that point, they throw the book at you (I visit often). I disagree with their policies, but choose to comply for the sake of common sense. Its just not worth the headache. When I arrive on Disney property, I check in my firearm. It takes 10 minutes. If you want, you can store it in you trunk in a safe. Please do not carry into any of the parks. It will ruin your vacation. Let them change the laws first.
Stay Safe!!
I am glad that LEOs are carrying off duty. I am interested to know how many/how frequently off-duty LEOs need to draw their weapon.
They draw far less while off duty. Drawing on duty is rare too.
A LEO’s job is mostly done with communication. A gun is just a tool used to stop a deadly threat.
I carry mine EVERY time I leave the house. I have ran into people I have arrested in my very own community.
I have never had to draw off duty. But if someone means to cause me harm… I have the option to run or shoot. My choice.
Having only the option to run means I better be able to run long, hard, and fast.. and pray he does not shoot me in the back.
Not sure how I came upon these posts….I’m a cop in WI. To all of you who have posted thus far, it’s been enjoyable to read… I first visited Disney as a kid in 1985 with my parents and younger sister, and have several times since. I’ve been in Law Enforcement now for 12 years, which includes time as a Military Police Officer in the USMC.
For as long as I can remember, I’ve been pro-gun, and pro-carry to law abiding citizens (those of us in Law Enforcement know the bad guys carry no matter how many laws are in effect). I don’t care if you’re a LEO or not….if you know how to safely handle, carry, and use a firearm, I say, have at it (while following the law of course).
As far as the ‘carrying on Disney Property’ chat goes; I have carried a firearm the last 4 times I’ve been to Disney. These 4 times have been while I’ve been a cop, and subsiquently, since 9/11 when Disney Security was amped up big time. I never asked if I could or not, because I knew by FEDERAL LAW, I legally could. I was never stopped, questioned, or eyed-up by Disney Security. My gun never fell out of my waistband, or accidently went off.
All that being said, I understand Disney’s view of ‘no guns, no exceptions’, however I don’t agree with it. During my most recent trip there (March of 2011), I spoke to one on duty deputy, and one off duty Orlando PD Cop. They both told me that, while Disney has their poicy, they, for the most part, don’t agree with it either. I also spoke with 3 other cops from different locations around the country that were there on vacation with their families. They all did the same thing I did and carried their firearms.
To all of you LEO’s that want to carry there, be smart about it and you’ll be fine. I carried a full-frame Glock 21SF tucked in my waistband and had no issues, and no one had a clue.
For as smart as the Disney Imagineers (or whoever makes the calls there) are, their logic is flawed, and to them I say this:
When a major incident happens, and I say ‘when’ because it will sooner or later; and an off-duty cop who is carrying (against your policy), saves the lives of his/her family as well as countless other guests…..you may want to re-think your anti-gun policy……..and comp him/her tickets for life. I know you think you’re organized, however it boils down to this: Don’t bring a knife (or in Disney’s case, several unarmed people) to a gun fight.
Stay safe and live life~
Iowa8953 – No idea how many times off-duty officers ever have to use their guns. I imagine with the same frequency that any armed citizen might. There are not specific stats kept by anyone on such things, but I believe researcher Gary Kleck has tried to quantify the numbers for armed citizens.
JohnsonJT79 – Thanks for taking the time to leave a detailed comment. I think you are dead on. Stay safe!
I carry every time I go. You see fire hydrants all over the property and there is no way I’m letting the fire boys be more prepared than me. Grossman makes a good point with the fireman analogy.
In 1997, I visited Disney World with my family. Having been on the D.C. Police Department for 18 years at this point, I always carried a weapon with me as long as I was driving at that time. After the first day of maintaining the weapon the best I could on several rides I identified myself to a uniformed security person who happened to be a retired state trooper from Rhode island. I asked if there was anyway to secure my weapon while I was in the park. He led me to a secure area through one of the stores on Main street and into administrative buildings where I met at the time the one Deputy Sheriff for the entire complex assigned. He asked for my Identifaction and i always carried my badge around my neck on a chain anyway. Then he spotted my Maryland Right to Carry Concealed permit also and asked if he could copy all three. I asked why the Maryland Right to carry and he said the Maryland Right to Carry is the strongest in the nation. It has no reciprocity with any other state. The investigation is conducted by the Maryland State Police and is thorough. It carries as much weight as your badge and ID for D.C. I haven’t been back to Disney since then but if they have no magnetometers up then I would continue to carry. I was able to pick up weapon later that night when we were ready to leave as it was secured in the deputy’s office safe. It was easy then; unknown now,
I have a story about Disneyland in CA from a couple years ago. My daughter and I had annual passes for many years. We have been to the park literally dozens of times. I always carry off duty. Never once in all the times I’ve been to Disneyland did I give it a second thought. Never even knew that I wasn’t “supposed” to be armed there. So, one day, we’re going through “Security” (where they do a cursory inspection of purses and diaper bags) and for the first time ever, the attendant asks me to empty my pockets. “What?” I think, and do it…I’ve got nothing to hide. So I pull out my keys and whatever else is in there and dump it on the table. Attendant says “Anything else?” I pat my pockets and say “No”. As attendant says something about something clipped to my pocket, I simultaneously realize I have my Gerber folding knife clipped in my right pocket, as always, and notice a snot-nosed kid with the look of feigned authority watching from very nearby. I remove my knife from it’s proper place, and the kid approaches. He tells me that I can’t bring my knife into Disneyland. I identify myself. Doesn’t matter. Can’t bring it in. He’s clearly got an attitude and is getting off on confronting me about this. Even my daughter noticed it. I ask if there’s someplace I can lock it up. Nope, have to take it back to the car or hotel. Ok, so I ask to see a supervisor. I get a Cast Member supervisor, not a Security supervisor. Same bullshit, different imbecile. Can’t bring in the knife. Can’t lock it up anyplace. If I leave it with them, I’ll never see it again. They actually SAID that! I ask where I might be given notice of this particular rule. No one can answer that. Supervisor says “I think it’s somewhere on the website.” Ok, that’s nice, how does that help us here at the front gate? BTW, try and find it anywhere on their website, I dare you. So, in deference to not further embarrassing my daughter, I retreat to take my knife back to the car. I get on the tram, ride all the way back to the parking structure, and as I’m getting off the tram, I see a Disney bike guard watching me. He watched me get off the tram, walk all the way back to the structure where I assume I was picked up by security cameras. Took the knife back to the car and considered pretending to put it in the car while slipping it back into my pocket, but I didn’t. Don’t need a knife for a gunfight after all. Back to the tram….there’s bike guy again…at this point he pedals his minimum wage butt away. Back to the gate and my daughter. We went on about our day with me very pissed about the whole ridiculous incident. The funny thing is, none of those idiots ever even suspected anything about the full size Glock on my hip. BTW, no one told me I couldn’t bring a gun in…they just said I couldn’t bring a knife in. I didn’t. Good job Disney security.
I’m a Fed and I’ve carried my weapon inside Disneyland (CA). I did this several times when I lived and worked in CA. Since I’ve moved to Texas (2006), I’ve made trips with my family and taken my weapon with me, but left it in the safe at the hotel. On my recent trip this year to WDW, I didn’t take my weapon at all. Having to go through airport security may make me change my mind, but then I’d still have to have my kids searched.
(A) Federal Agents, as a general rule, are required to have their weapons accessible to them 24 hours a day. Certain agencies like the FBI, sometimes construe this more rigidly to say that the Agents should always be armed. Whether we are ever off-duty is a tough one, because the Agency will say we aren’t ever “off-duty” but clearly we are when we are on leave. The Agency could say we are still on-call, but the issue really isn’t a Fed’s right to carry but the property owner’s right to admit you under their conditions.
(B) Federal Agents have “jurisdiction” in all U.S. States and territories. What we don’t have jurisdiction over is certain crimes. I don’t technically have jurisdiction over a murder unless the State I happen to be in gives Federal Agents law enforcement powers. The Good Samaritan law and other state laws often cover us if we do take action in most felonies, but technically, we it isn’t our jurisdiction to enforce state crimes. But again, that really isn’t the issue.
(C) As Federal Agents we don’t have a right to be on private property unless we have a specific job related reason for being there. In other words, if Disney asks us to leave, we have to. We don’t have to part with our guns, but we don’t have a right to enjoy the parks.
(D) Those of us with law enforcement training realize that use of a weapon inside a theme park would be a terrible idea except in the most extreme circumstances. A LEO must always be cognizant of what lay beyond the threat. And in a place like a theme park, there will never be a clear path behind the target. There will always be bystanders in such close proximity that use of a firearm would have to greatly outweigh the threat to the bystanders. Actually, that’s always the case but in most places there’s a limited amount of people around. A theme park has people everywhere. And behind them is more people. 360 degrees of wave after wave of people. And statistically speaking, most encouters result in at least one missed shot…. That isn’t to say there isn’t any circumstance under which an off-duty LEO could wisely intervene. I’m just saying that such instances are far more diminished than in your typical robbery at the corner market.
(E) Riding roller coasters, boat rides, etc. will require extra vigilance to remain concealed. Let’s face it, our concealment clothing wasn’t meant for the roaring rapids ride or a roller coaster that goes upside down.
(F) The gun in the hotel safe was probably left there by somebody who forgot upon checkout. Or it was left unlocked. If the maid was accessing a safe when somebody was still in their room…well, that’s obviously not what the safe was designed for. I’ve left my gun in the safe in my hotel room before and never had a problem.
Yes, there will always be the chance that others, in a crowd, may be in the line of fire while engaging a bad guy. Cops are trained to not take the shot if there is a chance you will hit an innocent person.
It looks real bad for a cop to accidentally kill an innocent and miss the bad guy.
I get it that Disney might fear this and want to limit the possibility. But cops are trained and charged to shoot only as appropriate.
But if the cop CAN make that shot without endangering innocents…. that gun sure could save some lives during an active shooter incident.
And then…. what would the “on duty” cop do differently? NOTHING!
BTW, I think it is Disney policy that if you stay at their property (i.e., one of their hotels or resorts) you must check in your firearm at the front desk not your room safe.
My wife and family have stayed at more than one on-site Disney hotel in Orlando and never seen any such signage in the lobby, on the entrance doors or elsewhere.
I agree with Aaron. I’ve been with a major city police department for 27 years. Carrying a gun into an amusement park is an incident waiting to happen. If you pull your gun you raise the bar of hitting an innocent victim, inciting a riot, inciting a gun battle, etc. Also, what happens if you lose your gun, say in a bathroom stall or your gun falls out while riding a rollercoaster. And as others have said, how are you going to stop a terrorist packed with explosives? With a gun? The best bet for any amusement park is to stop those bent on causing harm, at the entrances. It seems that many of the police officers on this blog believe they can stop a bad guy. Have you ever been in a gun battle? Have you ever worked in a large municipality where numerous innocent victims are in the line of fire? Wake up, a gun is not always the best tool in certain situations. Helping innocent people evacuate or take cover, etc., is your best bet in a terrorist situation.
Aaron is correct. I’ve worked in law enforcement as well as security in a number of major hospitals. I’m amazed at the misconceptions regarding the rights of police officers and weapons. It works both directions.
I wish I had a nickel for every time a staff member went off because a police officer was armed in our facility on official business. I’ve told them many times that an officer has every right to be armed in the course of their duties. I’ve even gone so far as to recommend the arrest of staff members who obstruct official business in their attempt to disarm them or deny access.
That said, I’ve also had to argue many times with officers who are armed while on personal business. Some will defend the FALSE belief to the very end that they have the right to do so. The reality however, is that any private organization has every right to not only request, but demand that law enforcement disarm on their property if not on official business.
I find it hard to believe you are a cop of 27 years.
Clearly, you have not been trained how to safeguard and secure your gun while in sitting on the pot. You put it in your underwear!! You cannot “lose it” that way. In 20 years of dropping a duce while armed… I have NEVER “lost” mine. What about you?
Holsters come in a variety of styles. Belt loop, belt clip, and pancake style. They also have open top, snap, hood, and push button retention features.
If you are going to be enjoying the rides… you need to pick the best holster that will retain your firearm. If your holster cannot be trusted to retain your firearm while upside down… maybe you should just stand guard.
I was shocked to read: “It seems that many of the police officers on this blog believe they can stop a bad guy.” Are you for real? I am guessing you have never tried or failed. That is our duty and desire as cops. I am guessing yours is to just collect a paycheck. Oh, and show people the exit.
During an active shooter incident, when people are getting shot one after the next, I will be sure to take your advice and only help evacuate the thousands of people. I will do this wile continuing to watch the active shooter kill people right in front of me. I will just stand there and do nothing. Maybe I can be a good observer so I can collect my paycheck too.
I am not sure where the “Disney is anti-CCW” message comes from. When my wife and I recently visited Disney World, Orlando, I did not see any “No Guns” signs at all. Her purse and any other bags were checked before entering, for what I don’t know, but there were no metal detectors and I carried my P-3AT in a strong-side front pocket holster with a spare mag in my weak-side front pocket. I can’t see how I could have been breaking any law or even company policy when there was no signage prohibiting weapons that I could see. And I am a private citizen with a Florida CCW permit, not a L.E.O.
John,
It’s not a matter of law, it’s a matter of private policy. Disney makes it a point to avoid big productions with those things. It’s not good for PR. They obviously can’t expect your awareness in the absence of a sign. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t enforce it. It’s probably printed somewhere in their literature. Now they can’t assume that everyone has read it. But whether or not you’ve seen it, they can make any policies they wish. We don’t have a sign on our property that says “no tresspassing.” If I’ve made contact with someone however and told them not to return, the sign becomes unnecessary.
At least in theory, their security should have caught it before you entered the park. The only way to ensure that is to conduct a search like an inmate at the local jail. They obviously can’t do that. Well, they could for a day. The next day though, they’d be protested and shut down.
Even law enforcement doesn’t have as many rights as some think. Weapons on personal time and private organizations don’t always mix. A lot of the confusion is two fold. First of all, an officer with a full commission is technically on duty 24/7. There is therefore an implied duty to act. The other issue, is that many departments have policies requiring the carrying of off duty weapons. With that comes the assumption that they’re exempt from those things. What many officers don’t consider, is that it’s a departmental policy, not a law. It has nothing to do with any private organization. In spite of a duty to act, they still need to exercise discretion when not armed. If they feel strongly about it, they have the option of avoiding that organization. It’s really that simple.
The same applies to concealed carry permits. Part of that permit by the way, usually requires a familiarizaton with those things. They’ll usually tell you that a private organization can restrict your access. That’s true with or without a permit.
They don’t have to post a sign to enforce it. A concealed permit doesn’t make you an entity that supercedes their rights. If they catch you with it and tell you to disarm, that’s all that is required. Again, it’s not a matter of law. You’re not violating a the law if you have a permit and are abiding by the state requirements. It’s just that Disney has every right to restrict it on their property. At that point, it’s up to you to decide if you wish to visit anyway. If you choose to challenge them, the law is on their side at that point.
Robert
“I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” I am always prepared to protect you and make the bad guy have a really bad day. I will do this by any means necessary. You don’t always have to use a firearm people. If you properly train to be a warrior, then you will respond as such.
With that said, I did a search on the Disney web-site for weapon policies and here is what I found. It clearly says ” weapons of any kind”, may not enter the parks.
Q- Are there any personal items I should not bring with me into the theme parks?
Items that you may not bring into the theme parks include but are not limited to:
•Items with wheels, such as:
•Wagons
•Skateboards
•Scooters
•Inline skates
•Shoes with built-in wheels
•Strollers larger than 36″ x 52″ (92 x 132 cm)
•Suitcases, coolers or backpacks with or without wheels larger than 24″ (61 cm) long x 15″ (38 cm) wide x 18″ (46 cm) high. (Coolers required for medication may be stored in a locker or at Guest Relations.)
•Any trailer-like object that is pushed or towed by an ECV wheelchair or stroller
•Alcoholic beverages
•Weapons of any kind
•Folding chairs
•Glass containers (excluding baby food jars and perfume bottles)
•Pets (unless they are service animals)
Great advice. Way too many “sheepdogs” QUICKLY become sheep when not armed. Train to be a warrior with and without the firearm! Your hands and mind should become lethal weapons to those trying to do harm. The firearm is just one of many tools at your disposal. Properly train the mind and you may never need a firearm.
Any LEO that choses to go out in the field unarmed is nothing more than one of the sheep.
All sheep can bite at the wolf or call 9-1-1 to call for a sheepdog.
But only a sheepdog has fangs that can do real damage to a wolf. Why would you bring fists to a gun fight?? That is all that the sheep do!!
HR218 allows the sheepdog to be everywhere.
Jim must be Steven Seagal!!!
The fastest response I have heard of was at Virginia Tech (months after the mass shooting in April 07). A male grad student in a dispute with a female grad student beheaded the girl in the time between when bystanders called the incident in and when the responding officer arrived; about a minute. All the worring about civilian CCWs and armed off duty officers getting shot in mistaken identity scenarios overlook the fact that usually whatever happens is all over before the responding officers arrive. The first responders are really those present when something starts and they have the advantage of not having to figure out what is happening, they are there, they know what is happening. Normally they can stand down when uniformed LE arrives. JRF
Here’s an interesting story for you. A Disney employee married to a cop is at the parks as a guest to run the Disney marathon. The husband (the cop) brought his service piece with him and stashed it in the nightstand. The next morning, they go down to breakfast. When they return to their room, it’s swarming with cops, the useless Disney rent-a-cops and hotel management. The cops leave when the husband shows them his badge, but management still kicked them out of the hotel and the marathon with no refund, AND they fired the wife. Her union (I presume they had to threaten to sue) got her reinstated at her job, with no mention of it on her employment record.
I see a lot of cops complaining that they are not allowed to carry guns in DW and other places. The owners are correct if its private property they are allowed to forbid guns unless
one is on duty. The rights of off duty officers dont trump the rights of private property owners. I own my home and I have an absolute right to exclude off duty police officers and on duty officers have a limited right to carry guns on my property. I used to be a correctional officer and officers couldnt carry guns in prison, whether state or federal. One can always go to a theme park that allows guns.
Really!!?? There is a clear reason why someone cannot carry in a prison. Come on!
LEOs are not “complaining” they are not allowed to carry on private property. They/We are questioning the reason and the logic behind it.
To allow on duty cops and not off duty seems odd. The Federal Government has decided it is a “good thing” to allow a LEO the ability to carry all over the place so that the public had more protection.
And private property owned by “you” does not charge admission fees and entice the public to walk upon your land or enter the buildings for entertainment.
I would love to see you call the police to take a burglary report and then have you tell them they need to disarm on the street before entering your property. You would get laughed at big time!!
I’m an active/sworn LEO and I have enjoyed this discussion about carrying firearms inside Disney. I carried a full frame 1911 (concealed on my hip under my shirt) inside the park during a three day stint about a year ago and was well aware of the rules not allowing them into the park (even for off-duty cops). I walked right through the “security” at the gate without a hitch and was ABSOLUTELY disgusted in the realization that a ‘bad guy’ could have just as easily done the same. My wife’s bags were given a cursory glance into the top of the bag. This confirmed to me that I did the right thing by taking my pistol in, especially due to the LACK of metal detectors. HOWEVER, in the future, I think I will go to greater lengths to obtain a ‘deeper concealment’ method to make it more convienent to me while enjoying all the rides and festivities and less concern of the wind blowing up my shirt/etc. (was never an issue, but was possible).
Before entering the park on the first day, I waved down an on-duty Anaheim PD Officer, badge flashed him and asked him his thoughts on carrying in the park. He’s the one (having jurisdiction to respond to incidents in the park [I believe]) who told me that if I didn’t mention it to security at the park, I should have no problem carrying as previously mentioned.
Just passing my experience along to those pondering doing the same. I struggled with not going and denying my kids and family the “Happiest Place on Earth” because of Disney’s misguided policies. As all you Sheepdogs know, it is next to impossible and not advisable to ‘become sheep’ even for a day and having the ‘Tools’ along that might assist in ending the unthinkable can add peace of mind while visiting a place that believes “It won’t happen to them.”
Cheers!
I know that Disneyland in California does not have a “contract” security, their security officers are “in-house”. I have made the same observation about the S/Os being out if shape and/or very old, hopefully all persons are ex military/LE. I have seen K-9 units patrolling around the perimeter as well as bike patrols. I also know that disenyland contracts Anahiem Police department to have officers stationed “desercertly” around the park.
Fed LEO 15 yrs.
I have taken my family (wife and 2 girls 6 and 8 ) to DW every year for the past 5 years. We always stay at a Disney Hotel. We have done the Wilderness Lodge, Contemporary, Animal Kingdom, Boardwalk Inn, Port Orleans FQ. I couldn’t imagine needing to carry once you are on Disney grounds. These hotels aren’t downtown hotels in the bad part of town. The parks seem super clean and have very few real scumbags (thanks to DW prices). Part of what I like about DW is parking the car on the DW property and not getting back in it or worrying about anything until we leave. And I don’t think you have to be concerned on the property.
All that said, we drive about 500 miles to get there. And you better believe I am packing heat for the drive. You would have to be insane to make a trip like that and not have some kind of protection on the road. Even changing a flat could lead to the wrong type of person wanting to “help” you and your family.
And outside the fantasy world Disney has created, in the city I live in, when not working I usually pack. No one knows, not even my family. My biggest fear is running into someone that I put in the joint before or something like that. Even bad guys looking up my personal address is a concern or should be for all LEOs. And I know everyone thinks differently and some of you guys think you need to pack in DW…I just don’t…but, I don’t care if you pack or not.
I was at Disney post 911 and shortly after HR218 was enacted. We stayed in our motor home in Ft. Wilderness. I have been on the job since 1982, a firearms instructor since 85, SWAT since 98 and have moved through the ranks and positions in every assignment. I was armed, everyday, every where for the two weeks at Disney, a day at Sea World and when we went out shopping in between. When they have proper security and check points then I might remotely consider, going unarmed. But there security is so lax and passive, no way.
I have been wanded and patted down at major sporting event stadiums and never once did they find what I was carrying. I have learned the plus one rule there too, as if they find one, they never look or ask for a second. It is a show to make the sheep feel safe, a false sense of security. I have never badged anywhere or shown my ID, I just pass thru undetected. A coworker of mine was a few steps behind me, badged the security and they told him to secure it in there office, he yelled out to me, security came scurrying after me, and said sir, not knowing what to do, I said I am not a cop like him, I am his accountant, they said oh ok and walked away.
I’ll keep mine with me and if I can’t I won’t go.
I have been through the gate atleast 25+ times carring everytime. Once the spotter did notice my weapon at the front gate of EPCOT. He was an old guy in a flower shirt and silly hat. Now I see one at every entrance before the check point. It is so so stupid for Disney to treat LEOs this way. I guess the will learn the hard way after a shooting spree. Read the news MOUSE!
They are so stupid they approached me once in Downtown Disney (no security check piont). They said that someone saw my weapon when I lifted my daughter onto my shoulders. They were unarmed and just confronted me. How trained could they be to approach a person they believed had a gun? I told the I was a local LEO and they said the policy was clear. I told them I would not say if I was carring a firearm and I invited them to put their hands on me. About 30 minutes later the Sheriiff’s Office came and I spoke to them. I told them I did not care about the mouse’s ideas of protection. They agreed and I eventually secured my firearm in my trunk for a few hours. Disney’s undercovers continued to follow me for a while and I got fed up, so I started following them around Downtown Disney. They had no idea what to do. It was an old lady and later an old man with an ear piece.
It’s sad that Disney is so dumb to treat LEO’s this way. GO MICKEY !! I will not take direction from a RAT! Sorry, I don’t work for you.
Wow, what a tough guy.
RE: Disney World, “NO GUN POLICY”
On duty PO responding to a call for service or investigating crimes are allowed to do their job.
Off duty PO are OFF DUTY.
For the impaired, Federal Agent/Federal Officer can be substituted for PO.
Have a majical time and then Disney doesn’t have to worry about you too!
There is no such thing as an off duty officer. All officers have a house bill that allow them to carry in almost every place. I personally just sneak mime by security every time. I have been in over 40 times. I will continue to protect myself, family and the public. Sorry dumb rat !
It’s private property. You have no right to bring your firearm onto private property. They could and should trespass you.
I think there is a huge difference between “could” and “should.”
Captain Spaulding is obviously a security guard captian and has no idea about the violence in the world. If someone can kill defenseless kids in school you need to wake up fool.
Stumbled across this one — I am not in LE (on-duty/off-duty, or otherwise), but…
…in the case of Walt Disney World, it’s private property — much like if you are visiting someone’s house. If they don’t want you to bring your gear inside, it’s their perrogative.
To suggest that WDW is ill-prepared in the event of something disasterous is pretty far-fetched. Not only do they have the “men in suits” lurking-behind closed doors, but they also have the services of the Orange County Sheriff’s Office for the major stuff (while Disney Security handles the minor stuff). The same is in play in Southern CA, as the Anaheim PD has police powers for Disneyland.
Just thought I’d add…