There seems to be a proliferation of “mouse guns” on the market. You know the ones I mean: they are small, lightweight, and very easy to conceal. Couple these features with the fact that many of them are less expensive than other larger handguns, and it is easy to see why many people are drawn to them for use as a back-up gun or to carry off-duty. In fact, one of the runaway hits in the 2008 firearms industry is the Ruger LCP.
However, there are some serious drawbacks to the use of a mousegun for self defense. For example, the sights are typically awful and the sight radius is very short meaning it is going to be very difficult to hit your assailant in the right spots. Even if you do hit your assailant in the right spots, mouseguns are normally “sub-caliber” pistols, meaning .22, .25, .32, and yes… .380. These calibers, even with modern ammunition, frequently fail to penetrate very deep and hollowpoints almost never expand.
Some of my fellow officers would argue (and some have) that the .380 ACP is adequate for self defense. The most frequent argument I have encountered from fans of the .380 is the size of the guns make it easy to conceal and there is very little recoil. If you notice, neither of these arguments actually address the effectiveness of the caliber in stopping an armed criminal. Besides, I’ve never believed that “adequate” was good enough when we are talking about my life or the lives of my family members.
To show the effectiveness of the .380 ACP, take a call officers on my shift responded to two nights ago. A distraught man intending to commit suicide pulls out a .380-caliber gun, puts it to his head, and pulls the trigger. The round cause quite a mess. Although he looked dead when officers arrived, the bullet failed to penetrate the skull and the man was merely rendered unconscious. In fact, the man was sitting up and talking to paramedics on the way to the hospital.
Two of the officers at the scene carried .380′s as off-duty guns, and they are now for sale…cheap.
One possible exception to the “mousegun” calibers is the .327 Federal Magnum that was introduced earlier this year. The .327 Magnum launches a .32 caliber bullet at much higher velocities than any of the previous .32 chamberings. Try a 115 grain Gold Dot at 1300 fps (3″ barrel). That is pretty darn impressive. However, I am not aware of any ‘real world’ shootings with this caliber, so I don’t know how the narrow profile, even at high speeds, will fare in both penetration and expansion.
I firmly believe that the .38 Special +P is the minimum anyone should carry for self defense or back-up. In an autoloader, 9mm is the base line. A .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP are even better. Anything less leaves too much to pure chance, which is never good in a life and death encounter.
Stay safe!
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Well, now you’ve gone and put a kink in my plans. I was thoroughly convinced I wanted to carry a .380 when I get my CCP.
Hmmm…guess I’ve got more thinking to do.
I’m glad you are getting your CCP! I wish more people were taking steps to provide for their own safety! After all, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away…
Keep in mind that even large bore handguns can be easy to conceal. A flat pistol like a traditional 1911 is a favorite for many people because it fires the potent .45 ACP, but is also pretty easy to carry concealed.
I really like the Glock 19 for concealed carry, and the Smith and Wesson M&P compact in 9mm has me very interested for concealed carry also.
We are really living in a great time for a wide variety of quality handguns. Don’t go cheap on a tool that you may need to save your life. Also, invest in a quality holster. A -good- holster will conceal easily and be comfortable!
Awh, it is always fun to see what people carry. I just like my .40… 200 grain at 990 fps from a 3.5″.
What did the guy use to shoot himself with, though? I mean, with .380s, you can get a 95 grain that will go 1085 from a 3.5″. Not your ideal… but it should go through your skull… no? Maybe not… disturbing, however.
Oh well. Double Tap Ammo is your friend… those 200 grain Hornady XTPs that they load are nasty-fun.
I’m a 5’4″ female, and I have no problems carrying an all-steel Commander-size 1911 in .45 ACP. The heavy match cone barrel makes it more controllable and a softer shooter than my 9mm’s.
You’re absolutely right on a good holster being the key. Appendix carry in a good IWB and the gun just disappears.
The Chief Special by Smith and Wesson is a great option http://tiny.cc/CS45 It is compact and chambered in .45 and is a great off duty weapon
Penetration is the key, along with expansion. If the bullet expands adequately but doesn’t penetrate far enough, you’re in trouble. Conversely, if it penetrates well without decent expansion, more big trouble.
What I want is a bullet that will penetrate at least 14 inches in a body, with maximum expansion between 7 and 9 inches. That will cause the most damage in the human chest cavity, and there are two gun/cartridge combination’s that will do this without punishing recoil; the 85 grain Federal Hydra-Shock 380 fired from a Ruger LCP, and the 85 grain Hydra-Shock 327 Federal Magnum fired from the 3 1/16″ barreled Ruger SP-101.
I have yet to test one myself on a living human, and have no great desire to do so. However, tests with a full pork shoulder did achieve quite acceptable results. The 380 did an adequate job stopping at about 12 inches and staying in the meat while the 327 went clear through, a distance of about 17 inches. The interesting point is that both made fairly straight tunnels for about 7 inches; at that point they created a double-fist sized cavity before continuing on, leaving an exit tunnel about twice the size as the entrance wound. In actuality the 380 made several short tunnels; when that rodded-hollow point hit full expansion it fragmented most impressively, but the largest piece continued on as noted above. Since approximately 7 inches puts it right in the middle of the typical human torso, that seems like a very acceptable performance.
So, here’s how a couple of concealed carry permit holders in Kansas are gong forward: the LCP is going to be our primary carry from late spring through early fall since its small size is easy to conceal even in shorts and a t-shirt. The 327 Magnum will be our primary in fall and winter when more and heavier clothing makes concealing the wheel gun easier. We may use the LCP as a BUG during the cold months.
If I could only have one gun for concealed carry, I would definitely take the SP-101 over the LCP, simply because of the noticable edge in penetration. Thankfully I don’t have to make that choice and can have the best of both carry options.
Oh, regarding the attempted suicide that failed at blowing his brains out: from wounds seen in combat theaters I would guess the gun was held to his head at a high angle and the bullet actually ricocheted off his skull. Most people who try to shoot themselves in the head without eating the gun don’t hold the piece at a right angle; it’s an uncomfortable position. Most will just lay the gun against their head the way their arm and wrist normally fall, which gives a 30 degree angle. If the gun is held low in front of the ear they will likely succeed, but if it is held higher on the skull the angle of attack becomes great enough that it has more than a 50/50 chance of producing a non-fatal glancing blow. That’s been my experience at least.
I am going for my CCW in California. I have a few guns I own now to use but my money is on my xd40. I could carry my Ruger p95 but really I think my life is worth more than it. Its better than nothing but stepping in higher range is better.
So far I have 1000 rds and no pop ups or feed jams. I do clean my weapons which is a must. I was going to get a .38 but a brother of a old friend tried to take himself as well. It did the same thing. He stayed in the hospital for a few hours before being transferred to mental health.
My next semi auto will be a springfield xd 45 acp. I played with one and I love it. A very good option when 1911′s are going up in price every year.
Honestly, given the lack of availability and soaring cost of .380 (that, besides the inadequacy of the round itself), I set the bar at 9mm when I went to do my shopping for a carry piece. To be a truly responsible and effective sheepdog, you must practice a lot with your weapon of choice, and cost does factor in (though, don’t go cheap on the tool – you are placing your life or that of your loved one on the line). The best pocket carry 9mm I was able to find and subsequently try and buy was a Kahr PM9. Shooting +P ammo in it makes it buck a bit, but it shoots accurately and reliably – and it’s size makes it a perfect pocketable or IWB carry weapon. Many of the police around here use it as their off-duty carry calling it their baby glock. I generally carry hydrashok low-recoil in it, with a mag of speer +p gold dots and a mag of cor-bon powerball as well. Each round has it’s benefits and drawbacks – but I figure between my baby glock and three different magazines of cartridges, I’ve got all of my bases covered in a sweet covert package and 18 rounds of firepower to make sure I’m not completely undergunned.
When I’m feeling like I want to carry something more substantial, a Kimber 9mm Aegis is the ticket (LOVE this weapon and you will too – Springfield EMP is a clone of this gun and just as excellent).
[...] Originally Posted by theicemanmpls Only $120. to break in your new .380 for carry. That bereta bobcat is looking even better. Thanks to the OP for the link. It is a good one to comparison shop. Wondering if the .380 is enough gun. Read this article but also the comments at the bottom. Conflicting info to be sure. Carry Enough Gun: Just Say ‘No’ to Mouseguns for Off-Duty and Back-Up :: Blue Sheepdog [...]
[...] but the ammo might be scarce. Started me wondering if a .380 is enough gun. Found this article. Carry Enough Gun: Just Say ‘No’ to Mouseguns for Off-Duty and Back-Up :: Blue Sheepdog If seems to indicate that it is not but one of the commenters at the bottom of the article has a [...]
Everyone has anecdotal evidence regarding what is “inadequate”, but, in your story, if you shot an attacker with your trusty .380 and he was rendered unconscious, how would that be a failure? Jeff Cooper told of a comparable incident in which a girl was shot square in the forehead with a .357 snubbie, and the bullet went perfectly between her brain’s hemispheres. In that instance, she didn’t even lose consciousness. Every round has failure stories, and every defense situation is different.
Duray,
The .380 in the above incident “stopped” someone who was *trying* to die, not trying to kill you. I hope you recognize there is a vast difference.
While you are correct that “every round has failure stories,” you do not mention that failures for small, underpowered rounds outnumber the failure stories for larger, more powerful rounds. While there is no magic bullet, I do prefer to play the odds and carry one of the more powerful, less-prone-to-failure rounds.
Stay safe,
Richard
The original article and opinion was obviously written without considering the Hornaday Critical Defense .380 Hollowpoint cartridge introduced to the market in the past few years. This specially engineered cartridge nullifies ANY previous opinion of the stopping power of a .380. Also, the comment that there is very little recoil from a .380 is inaccurate, or at least incomplete. It all depends on the weight of the gun. A light gun such as the Kel-Tec P3AT kicks like a mule due to its light weight and the pure physics involved. For ANY given caliber or pressure rating (std, +P, +P+) a heavy gun will transmit less recoil to the shooter’s hand, and a lighter gun will transmit more recoil to the shooters hand. Period. The laws of Physics don’t change!
I have had personal firsthand experience, and I know that my buddy’s .45 cal is a softer shooter than my Kel-Tec PF-9, simply because it is a much heavier gun.
Hi Larry,
The Hornady Critical Defense line of ammunition is not magical. While I do like it, I prefer the CorBon Pow’RBall which has been around a bit longer. Regardless, I would not bet my life on this cartridge. In the ugliness of combat, I do not believe that any .380 ACP cartridge can reliably destroy enough lung and heart tissue, or penetrate the cranial vault, to stop a drug-enraged dirtbag.
Regarding recoil, I agree with you that a .380 generates more than “very little” recoil. In the article I stated that was an argument presented to me for the desire to carry a .380. Generally speaking the bigger the gun, the less felt recoil. Design also comes into play. A SIG SAUER P226 chambered in .380 ACP would generate a lot less recoil than a Ruger LCP. But then, I doubt the .380 ACP generates enough energy to operate a P226 reliably anyway.
-Richard
Larry, no ammo or bullet redesign can beat the laws of physics. Even with the CT ammo a .380 is barely, barely adequate.
IMHO the place for the tiny guns is an an off-duty BUG for smaller people, or for special purpose carry when clothing restrictions do not allow any other choices.
I’m 6’2″ and I can carry a Glock 19 in a Milt Sparks IWB holster, two mags, a Sure Fire light, a good knife, AND a S&W 642 in a pocket holster along with a speed strip for a reload.
I’m often wearing a T-shirt, cargo shorts and sandals or my FiveFingers with that load-out, I can literally be in my on vacation and relaxing clothes yet very well armed.
The idea that one can not hide a better carry piece than a micro .380 is simply untrue.
Good points Chuck. I also carry a G19 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special II and back it up with a 642. My decade-old Bianichi speed strips have finally started to come apart, and I think I will be ordering some new ones from Tuff.
Stay safe!
-Richard
I have also gone to the Tuff Strips Richard, good gear and they hold up just as well as the Bianchi strips.
I actually keep one of the 8 rounds strips in a pocket, and another 6 round strip. I use the 6 round strip loaded with 4 rounds as my “speed” load for the snub. I have found the 2X2 reload as taught by Michael de Bethencourt and Claude Werner to be the best way to get reloaded with the strips when you are in a hurry.
I recently traded my Sig Sauer p238 (chambered in .380) for a Kahr pm45 (.45 acp). The pm 45 fits in most of my front pockets and is now my everyday pocket gun.
I REALLY like shotting this one and it is not bad at the range.
I once had a Kel-Tec p3at but it was no fun to shoot so I ended up with the Sig p238. If you must go small (.380) I recommend the p238 because it is much easier to shoot and you will likely shoot it more and it is much easier to control.
I decided to switch to pm45 based on some of the concerns mentioned here (price of ammo, concern about effectiveness of round). I feel like the pm45 is a great compromise. I bought mine for ~ 635.00 on ~ 12/10/11. This is a lot more than the ~ 269.00 that I paid for Keltec p3at and approximately ~ 519.00 I paid for Sig p3at.
I also like the fact that I now have another .45 as opposed to only one .380 and don’y have to buy separate ammo for my one and only .380.