An increasing number of people have alleged that the BLACKHAWK! SERPA holsters are inherently unsafe due to the design that places a retention release lever along the side of the holster. Since July of 2011, many people have used Tex Grebner’s YouTube video as “proof” of their assertions.
I believe the SERPA is a perfectly safe holster. The holster, like any tool, requires the user to read the instructions and/or receive training to make safe use of it. We don’t hand a chainsaw to an untrained teen and then blame Poulan when he is at the hospital having things sewn back on.
For what it is worth, I have received classroom and live-fire training with the SERPA from the good folks at BLACKHAWK! at their facilities in Norfolk.
Also, it should be noted that Tex Grebner plainly states that he does not blame the SERPA holster for his accidental shooting. I’m glad that Tex survived his incident, and that he is man enough to post the video online. His experience is an excellent lesson that others can learn from. It is unfortunate that there are many internet trolls that have given him grief over the whole thing.
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[...] wade into the debate on whether the BLACKHAWK SERPA holster is safe as designed over at BlueSheepdog.com. I imagine 50% of the readers will agree and about [...]
Thanks for posting this Richard!
There has been a lot of debate and misinformation about the Serpa holster, and the original “I shot myself” video didn’t seem to help. Yes, there have been AD/ND shootings with the Serpa. However, there have been AD/ND with many other holsters as well. Probably every type of holster has been mishandled by some shooter somewhere facilitating an AD/ND. I give these two examples to make my point.
A friend of mine works for a Federal law enforcement agency that switched to the Serpa. Sure enough, they had an AD/ND on their in-door range. Management’s quick response was that the holster was a liability and they replaced them with “inferior” holsters. My friend tells me that the AD/ND was 100% operator error, and added that the officer was not the sharpest pencil in the box. Most officers were upset at losing the Serpa.
My agency has about 135 officers and we use the Serpa Level III for patrol use, and the Serpa Level II for admin and detective use. We have had the Serpa’s for over four years now and we have not had one AD/ND. We have some officers who only shoot at mandatory in-service training, and they are still able to use the holster without shooting themselves or others. Prior to that we used the Safariland SSIII duty holsters – which I liked very much, but caused some officers difficulty in drawing due to the rock back requirement.
Richard’s video is spot on – a holster is a tool, and only as good as the operator who uses it. Thanks for Tex for being man enough to admit that he drew his pistol incorrectly, and that his shooting was not the holsters fault.
No holster will be free from AD/ND if the operator chooses to curl their trigger finger when they draw the firearm. Any reputable firearms instructor trains shooters to index their finger (like in Richard’s video), so that the trigger finger rests upon the slide as the firearm is drawn. As the video shows, when done properly, the trigger finger naturally (and by design) comes to rest on the frame as the firearm leaves the holster.
For full disclosure I have participated in Blackhawk photo shoots with new equipment, including Serpa holsters. However, I have purchased several Serpa holsters on my own, because I firmly believe that it is a superior holster.
[...] on the Blackhawk Serpa, notes that negligence does not mean the holster is a bad design. And I know he’s serious because he capitalized Blackhawk and used an exclamation point. Ok, [...]
You can call it whatever you like and argue your point but the fact still remains that this holster still gives rise to more issues with AD/ND than any other holster. So they have sold a lot of holsters and they are having in my humble opinion more than their fair share of issues. Well you can argue its a training issue and its the instructors fault. At the end of the day the fact remains it is a design issue AND OR TRAINING issue. With “extra” training you can negate the issue in which case it must be a design flaw if it requires additional training.
Personally I refuse to use one and don’t encourage anyone else to either.
“…the fact still remains that this holster still gives rise to more issues with AD/ND than any other holster…”
Can you quote your source on this fact?
“With “extra” training you can negate the issue in which case it must be a design flaw if it requires additional training.”
You don’t need extra training, you just need to train the correct way.
There are lots of holster options out there. No one makes the perfect holster for all people and all situations. Find the ones you like and don’t look back. IF you want a true example of an unsafe holster, review what the TSA mandate pilots use: http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2008/03/tsa-stupidity-puts-pilots-at-risk.html For all I know, that still may be the only holster allowed by them.
Zein,
You have your personal opinion and we appreciate that. As I’ve mentioned, the choice of holsters, firearms, or any equipment ultimately comes down to personal choice.
However, your unsupported claims are just that. To say that since a few have had problems that nobody should use them is a stretch. That would be like saying, since Glock handguns don’t have exterior safeties they are inherently unsafe and should be avoided. Yet, a huge number of law enforcement agencies, some military units, and personal users have been able to use the guns without a large number of problems.
The fact that literally tens of thousands of the Serpa holsters are in use and there have only been a few AD/ND shows their viability for law enforcement, military, and personal use.
In the end it falls upon the shooter to learn their gear and use it appropriately. If the user can’t remember that it is never safe to curl their finger during drawing from a holster than they probably should not use a Serpa – or any other holster or handgun for that matter.
Richard said For what it is worth,” I have received classroom and live-fire training with the SERPA from the good folks at BLACKHAWK! at their facilities in Norfolk.” – seems like special training to me.
Of course he’s going to support the holster. The first line of the article says An increasing number of people have alleged that the BLACKHAWK! SERPA holsters are inherently unsafe due to the design…………….. Well you obviously don’t read the posts or the article. What proof do you desire. There are numerous records of incidents with the holster and with operators. Show me numerous incidents from any other manufacturer. Seems like where there is smoke there must be fire, but appears several of you don’t want to see it.
Please explain how a case got lodged in the mechanism that I mentioned in my post.
I own numerous Blackhawk products and don’t have any issues with them. This is not about TSA, PIlots or anything else, Glocks by the way have three internal safety devices and the original Glock did have an external safety mechanism to it FYI and it is possible to have one fitted to your Glock if you so choose – my personal preference is to not. This is about one issue and one issue only the Serpa. Don’t dilute the issue with smoke.
“Richard said For what it is worth,” I have received classroom and live-fire training with the SERPA from the good folks at BLACKHAWK! at their facilities in Norfolk.” – seems like special training to me. “
Yes. Specialized training plus experience allows me to speak from a position of authority rather than from pure speculation. The advanced level of training I have is not needed to properly use the holster, but it does allow me to unequivocally state that with proper drawing/practice this holster is no more danger than any other holster on the market.
“Well you obviously don’t read the posts or the article. What proof do you desire”
I’m not sure what article or posts you refer to. However, you stated earlier that it is a “fact” that the SERPA causes more AD/ND than other holsters. “Fact” is a very specific word and requires empirical evidence for proof. You are entitled to your opinion, but anecdotal stories with no way to test their veracity found on the internet does not approach proof.
If you have proof to support your purported fact, please provide it.
The information on the TSA mandated holster was provided as an example of a holster design that does actually appear to increase the odds of a AD/ND. It was provided for your edification, rather than as a red herring, since you asserted that the SERPA is the World’s Worst Holster Design™.
“Please explain how a case got lodged in the mechanism that I mentioned in my post.”
To what post are you referring??? I have not published any of your writing here at BlueSheepdog, nor have you provided any information on some other post to which you’ve made no previous reference.
-Richard
Zein,
Your statement that after Richard went to Blackhawk “Of course he’s going to support the holster” doesn’t hold water if you read posts on this site. I believe an unbiased review of the posts will point out the objectivity of information – check out Richard’s Winchester White Box ammo review, or his objective review of the Glock Gen 4 as an example.
The only “fact” I can draw from your posts is that you personally do not like the Serpa – and that’s fine with us. In fact, this site is intended to draw out individual opinions on the variety of topics posted. However, we do not endorse blanket statements (positive or negative) that are not supported with more than just conjecture.
Like Richard, I gave the Glock comparison because (like Serpa) Glock initially ran into a lot of flak about it’s design. The safety issues were proven to be false by independent and objective review, testing AND training. As a Glock Armorer I’m very familiar with the three internal safeties, and agree that they are very safe handguns … as long as you don’t curl your finger into the trigger guard when you’re not ready to shoot. Just like the Serpa!
You mention that “the original Glock did have an external safety mechanism”. I know that Glock offers the external safety now as an option but that was not part of the “original” design. Here is what Glock says:
“ACTION
Safe and ingeniously simple: Contrary to conventional, the trigger is the only operating element. All three pistol safeties are deactivated when the trigger is pulled -and automatically activated when it is released.”
http://eu.glock.com/english/index_options.htm
Another article from Business Week below specifically quotes “Unlike most handguns, which have external on-off safeties, Glock pistols are equipped with internal mechanisms that prevent firing. These internal safeties are disengaged merely by depressing the trigger. The ability to fire immediately, without worrying about an external safety, is one feature Glock has stressed as an advantage when selling its guns, especially to police departments.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147038111680.htm
Here’s a picture of a first generation Glock from Wikipedia which does not have an external safety:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glock_17_9mmPara_002.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock
Obviously there is a misunderstanding, which I don’t think will be settled here – it starts with both of you keeep claiming facts – an opinion is not a fact.
In my opinion there are numerous incidents, and maybe there should be more investigation into those incidents.
Enquiring minds gererally dig in to issues and investigate reports and return to the scene to continue investigations until solutions are found rather than dismiss them
FACT – Several large commercial firearm training establishments will not allow their students on the range using a SERPA holster, due to issues with the holster, be they real or imagined alleged or not, unless the retention mechanism is deactivated.
I don’t like use the Serpa based upon reported issues and advise “My students,” not to use it.
Glocks were sold outside of the US prior to being imported here. I believe that the original Glock ie prototype was equipped with an external safety. I don’t believe Wikipedia has a photo of the prototype otherwise I’m sure you would have sent that to us. I also am a Glock Certified Armorer FYI and have been a Glock armorer for over 10 years.
It appears that both of you are not aware of issues surrounding business politics and how many companies fail to admit liabilities and responsibilities and eventually succumb to pressure, and if you are aware of it it appears you ignore it when is convenient. Toyota and car mats is just one issue that comes to mind.
It appears very clear to me that both of you have not only strong opinions about this but also attitudes and reminds me of recent discussions between a civilian and a Chief of Police and Lt. in which when questioned about CCW and civilian carry they opposed it saying “too many guns out there, and it would dilute the value of the Police force if more cilians were legally armed.
“an opinion is not a fact.”
Absolutely correct, yet you started this thread by claiming your opinion was fact.
“I don’t like use the Serpa based upon reported issue…”
Perfectly valid position. There are plenty of choices out there, and I imagine you have a few that you have found that work well for you and your circumstances.
“It appears that both of you are not aware of issues surrounding business…”
I’d suggest not making assumptions about my business knowledge or background. It is neither on-topic, nor appropriate. Also, it is ignorant of my actual experience and education in this area.
“[your attitude] reminds me of recent discussions between a civilian and a Chief of Police…”
Not only way off-topic, but completely ignorant of my position on CCW and the rights of all citizens to keep and bear arms. You will not find a stronger group of Second Amendment supporters than the writers here at BlueSheepdog. Try reading my comments in these posts if you like:
Georgia Man Sues After He is Detained for Carrying a Concealed Firearm
No Guns for Police Officers at Disney World
Quoting from one:
I believe that any U.S. citizen that is not specifically excluded from owning a firearm (convicted felons, mentally ill) has the right to possess and carry a firearm and to defend themselves and their families. I dislike the notion of concealed weapons permits as no right should be subject to this level of government intrusion.
The right to keep and bear arms is a strong a right as the rights to free speech and against unreasonable search and seizure.
The government cannot regulate newspapers (what is printed, where they publish, the news they cover, etc.) because the press is a right. Likewise, owning and carrying firearms is likewise a right and should not be subject to the intense regulation this right has suffered.
Zein, rational debate on any of the topics we discuss is always welcome. However, I do ask that posts be kept on-topic and not devolve into personal attacks. Off-topic posts, irrational response, or “attacks” will be removed.
-Richard
Zein,
Richard and I have said from the beginning of these posts – show us the “facts” and we’ll be more than happy to put them out there. We have really enjoyed and benefited from the posts of readers. So far you have only exposed YOUR “opinions”, and have refused (in serveral posts) to identify your sources for your “facts”.
You claim, “Obviously there is a misunderstanding, which I don’t think will be settled here – it starts with both of you keeep claiming facts – an opinion is not a fact.” Zein, I have provided an actual example from my department of about 140 officers using about 160 Serpa holsters (SWAT has 2 holsters each) for over 4 years. We have had no AD/ND issues after thousands of drawing and re-holstering. That is a fact, not opinion. I am not permitted to identify my department per policy, but we’re about as middle America as you can get. Sorry, that’s as good as I can do on that one.
We are also not the only department in this area to use Serpa, and I know of only one AD/ND issue. That was from a quasi-Federal agency. A firearms instructor there (who is my neighbor) loved the Serpa as did most of the officers. Unfortunately, there was one officer who could not master the concept of not curling his finger until ready to shoot (and probably should not be an officer according to the instructor). That was OPERATOR ERROR, and NOT a design flaw of Serpa. I’m perfectly willing to put that example out for our readers.
To that I borrow the common saying – “You can’t fix stupid.”
You claim, “FACT – Several large commercial firearm training establishments will not allow their students on the range using a SERPA holster”. Although, claimed as a “FACT” there is no mention of the company names to verify that, which is suspicious at least. Please provide those institutions so we can contact them and verify their practices and concerns, and the FACTS about any Serpa issues – particularly a DESIGN flaw with Serpa holsters.
As Richard and I have said, this website encourages open dialogue among officers and others alike, but we cannot allow unsubstantiated “facts” that might mislead readers.
I find it interesting that you mention us not being aware of “business politics” surrounding companies not wanting to admit product liability. To avoid the personal attack, I will address the point. I find it interesting that Blackhawk (a relatively new company) is under attack about its products – as its market share grows. Sounds awfully familiar!
My example about Glock was along those lines (and spot-on by the way). Initially the American gun manufacturers, and their followers, severely attacked Glock for its “unsafe” pistol. However, Glock pushed right through the false claims and now owns a commanding 65% of the law enforcement market. There are some, however, who still hate Glocks.
Business politics indeed!
Finally, about the Glock – I’m sorry but you are wrong. I called “Cory” at Glock USA in Smyrna, GA (770-432-1202). According to Cory, Glock has never manufactured a pistol with an external safety. Those are all after market accessories. I asked him about the “proto-type”. Cory said that Glock has been “true since conception” – no external safety. In fact, Cory said that if a person puts an external safety on a Glock it could void any warranty should that part be found to be the cause of the problem.
You don’t like the Serpa – that’s fine. But before we blanket remove the item as a viable option let’s hear the “facts” from these sources you claim but don’t cite. We’re cops, you can say all you want, but if there are no “facts” to back it up it doesn’t hold weight – in our opinion!
You infer that Richard being invited to see, test and evaluate Blackhawk products at their facility automatically means that he has lost his objectivity. All I can say is read his blog to disprove that claim.
Perhaps you are associated with another holster manufacturer in some way? It would definitely explain the un-cited sources.
I know this topic has been hotly debated, and I know that Richard and I have made a pretty strong stance in favor of the Serpa holsters as a viable option. Some readers have also been just as adamant that the Serpa’s are dangerous and should not be used. So I thought I’d provide one more example of a Blackhawk Serpa endorsement from a fairly reputable organization.
On the popular History Channel television series “Top Shot”, the shooters were outfitted with Blackhawk Serpa Concealment (belt loop) holsters. During what was labelled by one of the shooter’s as the first competition involving drawing, shooting, and then holstering a handgun.
The shooters were trained on the use of the FN 5.7 handgun. To add real stress to the equation during the competition, the shooters were required to rig up and rappel from a 30 foot tower – stopping at platforms 20 feet, 10 feet up, and ground level to shoot. The shooters were required to draw, load, and successfully engage (3) jugs of colored water from (2) separate windows on each level.
This required the competitors, some of whom were very uncomfortable with rappelling, to move and shoot quickly, all while rigged to rappel. It also tested the holster’s ability to maintain the firearm under extreme jostling and movement during rappelling. The open-topped Serpa holster performed flawlessly even under these extreme conditions. And there were NO AD/ND’s.
Even if you attribute the absence of AD/ND’s to the competitor’s weapon handling skills, the Serpa performed very well under natural forces, and the requirement of shooter’s to adequately draw and holster their firearm (from heights and while rigged) no less than (6) times. Six different competitors performed the challenge successfully.
I’m not sure which season this is (I know it is a re-run), but the competition involved the following competitors and their times in this incredible challenge:
Chris – 1 minute 17 seconds
Kyle – 1:21
Augie – 1:23
Greg – 1:32
Gary – 1:36
Chee – 1:42
With times like that, and the difficult challenge it involved, I think it’s safe to say that the shooter’s and the organizers of “Top Shot” were very comfortable with their choice of the Serpa holsters.